In a mess - help needed!

[creations]

A week would be good, yes
If it is blatantly obvious that she is too tired then possibly tweak after say 4 days, for instance if you have to wake her every morning because it's gone 6am and you need to get out to work or whatever then it would be clear she needed a slightly earlier BT.  But with caution, yk.  You don't want to do it too soon because of those days where she short naps, they need to become her routine, shorter naps some days, longer other days and overall well rested.
Hope you see some movement soon.

(FWIW 15 min changes didn't help my DS, he just lost 15 mins sleep so because very OT and still woke early, he needs big shifts over fewer days so the OT comes on rapidly and forces his body clock to reset/move on. It can look miserable for a couple of days but for us it is so much more successful and he loses less sleep overall)

[lolsyb1982]

Was asleep at 7.20 and went to sleep all by herself! First time in weeks!!!! 

Will report back in a few days to let you know how it's going!

[weaver]

Great stuff

[trimbler]

Brilliant well done both of you

[lolsyb1982]

Ugh awake at 5.15 so only a 10hr night.

[trimbler]

Hugs Lauren how frustrating Can't help thinking that she may just be lsn and need that shorter nap as Heidi suggested, although of course you may still want to keep going with the current plan for a bit longer as creations suggested rather than changing things too soon... Sorry - really just replying for support, you should probably wait and see what the others say as I've not really btdt other than noticing that my DS had big jumps in A time at this age, I was so convinced he was OT when actually he was UT, which I realised as his behaviour was actually normal and not tired during the day. Keep going, you'll get there

[lolsyb1982]

Thanks for stopping by 

Yeah with 10hrs I can never tell if UT or OT. She has rubbed her eyes a few times this morning so possibly OT. I know when she's really OT as we get 9hr nights so if we get there I know it'll be a sure sign.

Will stick with the plan for a while and see how she goes. Tomorrow will be a short nap day as she's at the cm so will be interesting to see how we get on from say Tuesday.
Roll on when naps are no more!

[creations]

IMO (but I'm not there and don't know exactly when the EWs started and all the ins and outs, but...) the 5.15am WU is her body clock setting, it would have been 6.15 had the clocks not changed. My guess is she IS going to be OT from a night shorter than she needs BUT that you need that OT for your routine change to work. I would keep going. She was good and tired for BT which is a good thing, just didn't sleep past her body clock setting.
Even if she can only do a 10 hr night (and 2hr nap, with sleep needs dropping to 12 hrs in 24) you can still have a balanced and well rested routine with BT at 8pm and WU at 6am.  My guess is she'll do 10.5hr night in the end though.
So looking at 12.30 or later for the nap and 7.30 or later for BT today. (Will CM do nap at 1pm if you ask for tomorrow?)
Hang in there

[lolsyb1982]

Yep completely get what you're saying. She lasted until 12.30 far better than I thought actually and went to sleep in her BGB with no fuss which I thought there might be being so it's her first time !

Will do 7.30 bed. The cm usually does her nap close to 1 anyway so that won't be a problem.

[creations]

Success with the BGB - great!

[lolsyb1982]

Me again...

Im unsure whether to carry on as we are for a few more days or if I should bring BT a little earlier... She's having a NW (that's not new though but I don't know what's causing it?) and is waking still at 4.30ish... Although she's not trying to get up then and I am able to resettle her but it can take 30ish mins and then she's sleeping until about 6/6.15. I woke her this morning by getting ready.

It's the waking at 4.30 that's the problem as with the time to resettle she's not getting even 10hrs. What I don't want to do though is bring it forward too much, she still wakes at 4.30 and then has had that little bit more sleep and then decides it's time to get up.

What do you think, stick with 8 bed or try 7.30?

Here are the last few days

Sat
Wu 5.30
Nap 12.20-2.10
BT 7.20
NW

Sun
Wu 5.15
Nap 12.30-2.05
BT pd 7 - asleep 8 (lots of tossing and turning so OT?)

NW & awake just before 5 but back to sleep

Mon
Wu 6.30
Nap 45 mins
BT 7.45

Tue
Wake 4.30. Resettle 5.10-6.10
Nap 1-2
BT 8
NW - didn't look at the clock but wasn't too long to resettle.

Wed
Wu 4.30 resettle 5ish-6.15

From tomorrow she will be at home so her nap will lengthen again so might need to stay as 8?

It's such a fine balance isn't it this day/night sleep business! Never realised how hard it would be to get it right!

[creations]

OK, where you are this probably feels just awful, waking at 4-somthing or 5 and resettling for 30 mins does not feel nice at all, but from where I am (safely looking at times on a computer screen) it looks like everything is going in the right direction.  Being able to resettle a 4-somthing NW is better than a EW. I see those NWs as habitual, you will teach her to sleep through it.

I would hold where you are for now: set nap 1pm (whether short or long) and set BT 8pm.

Whilst you *do* ultimately want to offer her more than 10hrs night sleep (prob more like 10.5/11hrs) so BT will move earlier, I do not think now is the right time to move it, not just yet.  If you continue at 8pm and resettling the NW she is learning to stay asleep and to wake for the day later, this is what you need and I'm afraid it does involve some OT to get her there.  Obviously you are front line and know your LO so all decisions are down to you, I'm only suggesting based on where you are and where you want to get to.

The end plan as I see it will be to have set nap and BT which offers her roughly 12.5hrs sleep in 24hrs.
On CM days she short naps so may get say 11/11.5hrs - if she wants more sleep she will nap longer or lie in in the morning
On home days she long naps so may get say 12.5/13hrs - the extra nap time may balance out what she loses in nap time at CM

Whilst 8pm BT is only offering 10hrs (8pm - 6am) she still has the option to sleep all night, wake later in the morning, nap longer.
Eventually, perhaps in a few more days you can bring BT to 7.45pm then 7.30pm to offer a 10.5hr night with a 6am WU.  If at that point she still needs more sleep you could bring BT to 7.15pm edging the night longer to (hopefully) maintain the WU.

Hope this makes sense. I really feel for you with the EW/NWs. BTDT, hated 5am, hated 4.30 even more, hated clock change...but you can and will get through it

ah - one last thing you might like to try is a W2S in the night. Either an hour before her habitual NW (so 3.30am ish? doesn't sound inviting does it? tbh never worked for my DS but I see it's been a winner for many) or when you go to bed go in and disturb her slightly to kick start a new sleep cycle, this can help even though it's several hours off the NW.

[lolsyb1982]

I felt we were heading in the right direction I just wanted a few words of encouragement I suppose that it was kind of starting to work.

I did think of w2s this morning actually but I don't know if I can face it. Trying when I go to bed may help to stop the earlier wu around 11/12 though.

Will assess again at the weekend.

Thanks for your help with this 

[creations]

I did think of w2s this morning actually but I don't know if I can face it.

I know what you mean! I tried a couple of times in the middle of the night, gritted my teeth and forced myself up...but DS just woke earlier the next night so I missed the W2S time and when I set my alarm early for night 3 he woke even earlier and missed it again! It just wasn't the thing for us.  I must say though W2S for naps was a life saver with the 2-1 transition, we literally wouldn't have survived without it.