Long NW, Short day naps for 16 month old

[gb18]

 My 16 month old has always been a variable sleeper but mostly now he was sleeping through the night. Unfortunately starting nursery at 11 months old messed things up a bit as he struggled napping at times and OT leads to NW and EW but we were able to often catch up on sleep by having 2 naps on Saturdays ( he has nursery wed, thurs and fri). We have been transitioning from 2-1 naps since 10 months(!!) due to nursery (still doesn't sleep as well there) and the build up of OT.

Basically over the last 2 weeks any 2 nap days have been impossible to get. He cries and wont sleep either for 1st or second nap. If it is 1st nap I will put him to bed a bit later but often by then he is OT. OT nap is normally 1hr 20 mins and waking up crying. Worst case is a 45 min nap waking screaming. I have not had a nap over 1hr 30 for the last 2 weeks.

General routine is this -

wu 6.15 -7am (if 6.15 or earlier always try for 2 naps)
nap 10 -10.40 (I wake u if falls asleep at this nap, he would always have longer if he falls asleep)
lunch 12
nap 2.30 - 4 ish
bt 7-7.30

This has not been possible for 2 weeks where as before he had at least 1 day a week like this.

1 nap day routine

Wu hopefully 7
lunch 11.30/12
nap 12/12.30 ( in nursery set nap is 12)
wu 1.30 ish
bt 6.30 ( takes ages to sleep so not asleep till 7 or later)

NW often around 1 or 3, last night was for over 2 hours. I know he was OT as totally unable to settle and the last 3 nights I have ended giving milk which is the only way to settle him. I know I should not do this but with such long night wakings I just want him to sleep. He then still gets up at 7 so is ending up with less then 10 hours sleep. My DH is try to put LO for a morning nap now as he looks shattered but he is screaming!!

LO is very good natured but struggles to 'switch off'. He gets over stimulated easily and then wont sleep but he is DESPERATE for it!! If he is left playing etc he would just keep playing, he would not seem tired but if he did not get his own way, fell over etc then he would be inconsolable so I know he is super tired.

PLEASE HELP!!! Desperate for ideas on how to resolve this OT cycle.

Things to know - LO never catches up on lost day sleep at night
- In the past he has had 2 hr or at times longer naps with the above 1 nap timings
- No AP ever works apart fro having milk and this only works at night. LO sleeps a max of 45 mins in buggy and this will only be on a 1 nap day so unfortunately I feel trapped to the house as a day out often starts a massive OT cycle
- LO is developing lots of language so thnk this may be part of the issue
- Teething with pre molars but I do medicate. Last night paracetamol and ibruprofen  made no dfference so sure it was not pain related.

Thanks in anticipation xx

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Well for sure the language development alone can throw things off along with the teeth, but I wonder if the 2 nap days are leaving him ut and then causing him to go into an ut/ot loop. Tbh I think the nf at this age might reinforce the waking and cause a prop that might make it worse in the long run.

Would you say he is high, low or average sleep needs? We are on the low end and get about 12 hrs sleep in 24, basically I can take her nap length and subtract it from 12 hrs to know when she will wake in the morning! So we do an hour nap to get an 11 hr night.

[gb18]

Thanks for the reply. Think u might be right about the 2 naps as managed to get 2 naps yesterday which resulted in a 8pm sleep, no nw but a 5.45am wu! He fell asleep in the car for half hour after 4 hrs A today. Hoping that as he still seems tired that I can get a decent sleep after lunch and then a normal bedtime.

Just feel like he is still OT as just not himself, whingey and short tempered and then get 1hr 20 min mac naps. Even yest pm nap was 1hr 20 mins wu crying which normally means OT. Made me think ew was OT still.

I used to think he was LSN as struggled for ages with nw and short naps (the short naps resolved when on 2 naps with longer A) as a baby but think now he is average, maybe low end of average. I feel like if I get a decent wu and a 2 hr nap we would be good to go, just can't seem to work it out and without this OT builds. He can often manage one bad day or 2 but then needs to catch up. This used to be fine but catching now very difficult.

Was thinking if I get a decent wu about just choosing a nap time and just pushing on with it.

Have put him to bed now after lunch and he is just stood there!! I can't face a 1 morning nap day as the night will be horrendous with a 5.45 wu!!!!

[gb18]

Thanks for the reply. Think u might be right about the 2 naps as managed to get 2 naps yesterday which resulted in a 8pm sleep, no nw but a 5.45am wu! He fell asleep in the car for half hour after 4 hrs A today. Hoping that as he still seems tired that I can get a decent sleep after lunch and then a normal bedtime.

Just feel like he is still OT as just not himself, whingey and short tempered and then get 1hr 20 min mac naps. Even yest pm nap was 1hr 20 mins wu crying which normally means OT. Made me think ew was OT still.

I used to think he was LSN as struggled for ages with nw and short naps (the short naps resolved when on 2 naps with longer A) as a baby but think now he is average, maybe low end of average. I feel like if I get a decent wu and a 2 hr nap we would be good to go, just can't seem to work it out and without this OT builds. He can often manage one bad day or 2 but then needs to catch up. This used to be fine but catching now very difficult.

Was thinking if I get a decent wu about just choosing a nap time and just pushing on with it.

Have put him to bed now after lunch and he is just stood there!! I can't face a 1 morning nap day as the night will be horrendous with a 5.45 wu!!!!

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Honestly I think with most kids in the 2-1 there comes a point where you have to grin and bear it with regard to ot becuase if they never get super tired they will never start to make it up by having better/longer nights. Horrid I know!

The whiny/short tempered stuff could be totally unrelated to ot - we get that as a general thing as she is super spirited and wants to do things she is not physically capable of or is trying to communicate and gets frustrated if we don't understand. Loads of toddler tantrums here!

[gb18]

Yeah it did cross my mind that the temper etc could be an age thing. Just need to get out of this cycle of OT and then I will feel like I can push on with 1 nap as he is definitely ready I am sure.

Not really sure if my LO is spirited, he is just very noisey!! Interested in everything and can't switch off if he is stimulated. I know your lo is LSN but did u find when u made the move to 1 nap it gradually lengthened before u then had to cap it?

[gb18]

Nosey, not noisey!! Ha ha. Although he is pretty noisey too!!!

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Lol! Probably noisey and nosey if he is anything like my DD!

We went to one nap at 7.5 months and it was a 2 hr nap for a bit and then capped. I know my middle DD did lengthen hers before we ever had to cap it. The thing with the ot and the 2-1 is that if you keep trying to catch it up by offering 2 naps it may just perpetuate the issue!

[gb18]

Wow, 1 nap at 7.5 months!!! Guess u have more confidence to try stuff when it is not your first baby too. Unfortunately lo now has a horrible cough and cold so after a much better wake up of 6.15 after managing 1.5 hr pm nap in the end yest with a 7.25 bed, he is now back asleep after only 3hr A.
We have a late night tonight so hoping for a pm nap and then he will tolerate the late night.

What do u do if u have late evenings ever? Does your lo sleep later the next day normally? Have all your babies been LSN?

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Aww por guy, we are just getting over colds here, lots of healthy vibes for him xx

My older twp are more average/high...in fact they are 6 & 8 and sleep the same amount at night as the baby and if I could get away with it I would put them to bed before her! I didn't really realize DD3 was LSN until she was 4 months old and I tried 2 nap days because nothing else was working, but I tended to do things cold turkey with the other two (they were on ne nap by 11 & 10 months respectively but DD1 was the kind that did well with a solid night and DD2 was a 3 hr napper!).

I only wake them in the morning if we have to be somewhere - so for daycare on days I work and school on other weekdays. The baby doesn't really sleep in much though!

[gb18]

So much for him sleeping in, he was up awake after 9 hr night! This made me think Short night is OT not just a response to 2 naps! Oh I have no idea!!

Later in the week NW continued but more reasonable wu. Nursery tried one nap yesterday and this resulted in a 10 hr night which is short for him!! The nap was 1.5 hrs. He did do a 2 hr nap the day before after 3 hr A!! Unfortunately this then meant 7 hr A pre bt which inevitably led to NW!!!!

I am totally lost now, no idea what to do for the best now. D honestly seems miserable most of the time, the poor thing. He used to be so happy. Keeping giving medicine for teeth etc but not sure how much this makes a difference.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Do you think though that if you tried one nap for say a week his nights might lengthen? It sucks because there is inevitable ot!

[KookyK]

My DS's nights have lengthened from 10.5-11 hours to 11-12 since one nap. And instead of two 45 or even 30 min naps he now has one of 1 hr 30-2 hours which I think is more refreshing. He's 14 months and slightly LSN. He's still tired getting to the first nap so we have quiet mornings. We hve set nap times as sometimes he wakes early though since being consistent about one nap the past 6-7 weeks he's been better and getting close to or dead on 6am.

[gb18]

Right, well I am pushing with 1 nap with some success as on some days we have had a 3 hr nap!! He seems to need a short morning A and today I missed that windoand back to pesky 1hr 20 mins awake screaming. After a long nap he seems tolerate a longer wait til bt so I am less worried about making it to 12/12.30 nap time yet. Problem is there is no consistency. Saturday 3hr nap after less than 4 hr A but then can't seem to replicte this. Think he needs shorter A Saturdays due to tiredness after 3 days in nursery but then can't get it right after this. Today he was OT by 4 hrs A (nw last night) and then took ages to sleep and 1hr 20 nap.

Any ideas on how to get some consistency?

Really good to hear of success stories kookyk.

Never knew lo was so prone to OT until now! Assumed that as he is happy normally and just powers through that UT was a bigger issue esp as he was a short napper till on 2 naps