6.5 mo - long NWs and EMWs

[lily_layne]

DS has tended towards long NWs since birth but lately they are getting worse and he's waking earlier so he seems to be getting less and less night sleep over the past few weeks. I'm not sure what to do. He usually chats for 30-40 minutes and then if he cries, I feed him and he goes back to sleep. Sometimes he will go back to sleep on his own. 2-3 times a week he'll get through without a NF but usually wakes up to chat and play sometime in the night. Naps have been a bit off lately too so that's probably not helping. I'd like to fix it if I could as he will be sharing a room with DD when we move to our cabin for the summer and I don't want him waking her.

Tuesday:
EMW: 530ish - fed and sleeping by 6:20
WU and BF: 7
S: 10-11:30 (PD at 9:30 but took 30 min to settle)
E: solids at 12, bf at 130
S: 2-3
E: bf at 3:30, solids at 5
BF and BT: 6:20
NW: Chatted 4-430 fed and sleeping by 5ish

Wednesday:
WU: 6:30
S: 10-11:15 (A bit later than normal because he had his immunizations)
E: Solids at 1130, bf at 115
S: 1:30-3
E: bf at 330, solids at 5
BF and BT: 6:40 - He probably would have gone to sleep at 6 but I pushed it hoping to help with the NWs
NW: Chatted 12-12:30, DH tried to settle then I went and fed him - back to sleep at 115 - a bit feverish from the needles
EMW: 5-5:50 - chatted and then cried but stopped and self-settled by the time I got to him so yay for a small victory!

Up for today at 6:25 (and taking a good am nap

His regular routine is:
WU: 6-7
S: 9:30-11 - I wake him if he's not up to preserve pm nap
S: 1:30-3/3:30
BT: 6:30/7

[Kellyjs]

Hey hun, sorry you've not had any replies yet.

Oh dear, that does sound like UT NW's doesn't it? I would look at pd for that first nap around 9.55am considering it's taking him so long to settle wdyt? Worth a go for a day or two?

Problem is he may be a bit off colour and/or sleeping more for a couple of days following his immunisations.

You've got a very good average routine you're striving for there, problem is most lO's aren't average    . I'm just wondering, when did he go through the 3-2 if I may ask? X

[lily_layne]

Thanks for your reply.

Problem is he may be a bit off colour and/or sleeping more for a couple of days following his immunisations.

I know. It's not really a good time to do more tweaking. He sure isn't sleeping more than normal though!

You've got a very good average routine you're striving for there, problem is most lO's aren't average    . I'm just wondering, when did he go through the 3-2 if I may ask? X

If anything, he's on the side of HSN. He used to sleep at least 16 hours in a day and now it's barely 14. He dropped the CN about a month ago. If he has a really rough day nap-wise I try to throw one in but it's rare. I wonder if I ditched it too soon?

I'm just really not sure what to do. I'm not sure if the NWs are OT or UT. I know losing that much night sleep is making it hard to read his signals and he's rubbing his eyes and pulling his ears which he's never done before so I know he's tired. I don't know if he needs a day of catch-up or if he needs me to be a bit tough and really limit day sleep to get him sleeping at night. When he does STTN, it's 11 hours so I think that's the most night sleep I can expect out of him. What really confuses me is that when he does STTN, it's often after a short day (say 7:30-6:45) but those days usually happen after a long EMW so maybe it's just catch up???

Thursday was:
WU: 625
S: 930-1130 (I didn't wake at 11 as usual figuring his body needed some rest after the needles)
S: 2-330
BT: 650 (I think)
NW: 4-5 - chatted and then put himself to sleep

Friday:
WU: 630
S: 930-11
S: 130-3
BT: 645
NW: 445ish-6 - chat and then cry and settled (It was 10 hours from BT. OT?)
WU: 6:45

He still does really well with am nap at 9:30. It was a one-off the day he took a long time to settle. I would like to keep the pm nap around 130 as it lines up with DD and allows us more freedom to get out when they nap at the same time. Would it be worth trying a slightly later and shorter am nap (say 10-11)? Or maybe just pushing that last A? I'm using a set nap routine that I've seen a lot for his age but they all call for BT at 7. Maybe I just need to push him through until 7???

[Kellyjs]

Hmmm I'm always hesitant to push the last A as I feel OT before BT can make matters worse. For some though, it does work. I'm always more inclined to push the first A so at least they can have an opportunity to catch up throughout the day iykwim?

How does he settle at BT? You've not noted any ENW's so I'm presuming all is ok there? I am a little concerned that's he's dropped so much sleep so quickly, so I'm leaning more towards the fact OT might have come into play. What we can do is try and fix that and see if the EW's get any better and hopefully that'll sort the NW's.

Is he awake that entire time during the NW's? Problem is, those later NW's are usually indicative of UT  . I think we should try and see if he'll catch up, then if all else fails, we'll look at changing up your routine. If it isn't OT, I think the plan you mentioned with the 10-11am nap looks good.

Ok, so how to get him to catch up... You could keep the first nap longer as you did the other day, but this may reinforce the emw's. I would be tempted to see if he'll nap longer for the second nap, wdyt? Cap at 2hrs and try for BT around the same time for a couple of days and see what happens. The reason I've gone with a long second nap is that if he won't do longer than 11hrs ONS, EBT won't help with the emw's either. Hopefully he'll still be tired enough to settle for BT, but it is a risk he'll be UT and play you up. Worth a shot though do you think? Xx

[lily_layne]

I think we have hit ot from being ut and now its just messy. He usually settles quite well at bt and enws are rare even when we dropped the cn and i know he was ot at bt then. Your plan sounds good.

The drop in sleep has been going on for a while and it just seems we have hit a low point.

[Kellyjs]

Oh I hate UT/OT loops! Feeling for you hun. Let me know how it goes ok? Xx

[lily_layne]

Long EMW again this morning and I ended up feeding him - he was definitely hungry and then he went back to sleep for another 40 minutes. I did manage to get BT closer to 7 tonight (actually DH did - he had to keep him up to wait for me to get home to nurse him ) but it was still a slightly less than 12 h day as he was up at 710 so we'll see what the night brings.

I had a thought today - Could letting him go back to sleep be making things worse?

Unfortunately, I can't do much tweaking this week as he'll be with MIL all day tomorrow and then with a sitter on Wed and then we head to the cabin. I don't think it's worth trying much during a busy week and might as well wait until we settle in at our cabin. Maybe a change of scene will fix things 

[*Liz*]

My 4am issues are usually either due to too much day sleep, or just pure developmental. He EWd at 4am (and never went back to sleep) last thursday and then spent the whole day rolling all over the place  . He also tends to sleep a lot during a GS, and then that catches me out when the next week he is waking at night etc.

Their A times increase and sleep needs often do drop quickly at this age.

I do think you can get out the loops by following them a bit more though - I was so poor at it with my first baby - but Thomas only had 2 45 min naps yesterday, and was very tired at bedtime. This actually gave him a decent night so he slept 6.30 - 6.20am with a 2am feed, but then by 8.45am this morning he was a fuss pot and wanted to go to bed so I let him yk? He will likely end up with 2 shorter naps this afternoon and that will get us to a decent bedtime.

I would def allow him to go back to sleep after a 4/5am WU though, and then cut the daytime sleep a bit instead. Nothing good ever comes from starting a day THAT early!!!

[lily_layne]

just pure developmental. He EWd at 4am (and never went back to sleep) last thursday and then spent the whole day rolling all over the place   .

I'm wondering if that's what this is as he has started army crawling and he sure can boogie all over the place now! The sibling fights have started now as he can get himself over to DD and her toys!

I do think you can get out the loops by following them a bit more though

Do you just follow until things have normalized and then go back to your regular routine? I think if I let him, he would take some really long am naps. I have been waking him because I'm fearful of encouraging the EW but dyt it would be worth letting him sleep during that nap? In an ideal world it would a long catch-up pm nap but with him that's not likely.

Good to know about going back to sleep - a 5 am start sure doesn't appeal to me! What about the times when he's up around 5:15 but doesn't cry for food until around 5:45 and then it's past 6 by the time he is done feeding. I have been treating it as a NF and letting him go back to sleep but maybe I shouldn't???

[Kellyjs]

I think you should treat as a nf hun, correct me if I'm wrong Liz  . Anytime before your preferred wu time is a NW in my book! I still do that to DD now, even if it's only 20mins before we're due to get up!

Argh and developmental stuff can certainly play havoc with sleep. We've just had that recently here too, so totally feel your pain.

Have a lovely time at your cabin and just enjoy the time together, it sounds lovely, perhaps we can take another look once things get back to normal? X

[*Liz*]

I would def treat it as a NWing as well  .

[lily_layne]

Good to know. Thanks, ladies.

He had a much better night last night. Slept from 7 to just before 6. He was at MILs all day so I don't know what kind of magic she worked but I'll take it

[Kellyjs]

Woo hoo  go MIL!! X

[lily_layne]

ENW's the last 2 nights and a loooong MOTN waking last night He was feverish today but he had some good catch-up naps so my fingers are crossed for tonight. I have no idea what's going on but don't see the point in tweaking if he's poorly so I guess I'll just make my peace with nighttime parenting for now.

[Kellyjs]

Oh no that sucks hun, get well vibes being sent your way. Hope he's better soon x