Weaning from rocking with shushpat

[mothergoose]

Hello,
Looking some advice re shushpat. My 8 week old dd2 is a rocking addict. Takes quite vigorous rocking to get her to sleep. This was fine at first and didnt intend to start work on independent sleep for another few weeks but she is getting heavier by the day and as she wakes constantly at 45min mark 2 x vigorous rockings per nap is too much aerobic exercise for my liking especially with a toddler running about. So started shush pat yesterday. Not going great....have managed to get her to sleep in cot with my arm still around her jiggling very lightly and then release when she is in light sleep....so some progress from vigorous rocking and only transferring to cot when deep i suppose....but the problem is she is getting so overtired in the process...
Would you advice just working on this for one nap a day at the minute and letting her catch up with other naps? Or is consistency key?
Should a apop a short nap? (Having lots of these)
How long should i try shushpat for a nap before giving up and apop? Or should i persist until asleep? I feel so sorry for her i think the only reason she is falling asleep at the minute is she is crashing from sheer exhaustion.....
Also my shushpat is turning into more pupd as she is getting so distressed keep having to lift to calm her i know this is too stimulating for her age but what ia the alternative?
Thankyou!

[lauradj]

Hi there!  I would recommend you try Shh-Pat for each nap and at BT if necessary.  It does seem quite time consuming but it make a big difference long term and your arms will thank you!  Have you tried patting her bottom?  My DS2 prefers that to his back, I guess it's a more gentle, whole body thing.  Regardless, that is his preference and it might be less disruptive to your LO.  You do have to be consistent, otherwise your LO will become confused.  I have two under two and it was difficult initially to juggle both kids but I bought some 'quiet books' and DSD1 learned that he could stay in the room for the story but had to leave when I was laying DS2 down to sleep.  It was a stressful two weeks and then it all clicked. 

[mothergoose]

Oh this is not going well at all unfortunately....day 5 of trying shush pat in swing chair while gently rocking it (gave up on crib as seeing no improvement and thought swing might be a more gradual transition for her...for her morning nap she screams and screams for up to 1 and a half hours (we take out every twenty minutes or so to cuddle then put back and try again...she eventually falls asleep in chair but only from sheer exhaustion i think then has a nap lasting 20min to 40 min. The rest of the day she takes less time to settle....anything from ten min to half an hour....but still only sleeps less than 45min...can sometimes resettle in swing and sometimes apop rest of nap in arms.
So i have tried adjusting morning A time..have tried 45min (start winddown at 35) in case ot and 1 hr 15...short naps with all and difficult to settle with all. What i have noticed is that she goes to sleep easily at approx 1hr 45...less screaming and usually asleep in ten min...is this a crash or is her A time just unusually long?!
Husband back at work next week and cannot persist with the mor ing shushpat of an hour and a half for a twenty minute nap with a toddler so think i will try just keeping her up until she 'crashes' what do you think?
Is it too early to sleep train is that why im meeting so much resistance? Or may be the morning one is so difficult because i just let her feed to sleep for nigbttime wakenings?? Its so difficult....she also screams in carseat so pram and car are not an option as she wont sleep in either....😦 i am hoping this will change witb sleep training also as she will learn to relax outside of our arms.......
Help!!x

[mothergoose]

Still having a bit of a nightmare looking some further advice would you take a look at my easy and see what im doing wrong:
Wu 5:30 fed back to sleep and stayed on breast stretched to 7:15
A 7:15-8:15
S 8:25 -9:05 fed back go sleep stayed on breast nap extended to 10:10
A 10:10-11:10
S 11:15-11:45 unable to resettle seemed very ot
A 11:45-1pm(took twenty min to fall asleep)
S 1-1:30 unable to resettle
A 1:30-3:00 tried to settle for a nap before this but resisting-crying back arching for twenty min so stopped and tried again at hr and half A -straight to sleep
S 3:00-3:30
A 3:30-4:20
S 45min.....
So this is easy so far today...aiming for bedtime of half 6 will hold for first few hours as is the only way she will get any sort of sustained sleep andvwill set her up better for night but inevitably she will wake every 1-3hrs and require rocking/feeding back to sleep....
So is it prop issues i have or overtiredness or undertiredness leading to overtiredness??!!
So confused and fed up of the short naps

[lauradj]

Hey there!  Sorry I didn't respond earlier, I think I took a look at your earlier response and then one of the kids diverted my attention. 
It sounds like you're having a really rough go. Do you have a baby carrier?  I use that quite a bit so that I can still get out of the house and play with my toddler, while DS2 can still nap.  It would also provide the movement your LO seems to require.  Have you tried introducing a soother, instead of leaving your child on your breast?  It seems like your being held somewhat captive, which will likely make you more stressed out.
There is nothing wrong with allowing your baby to fall asleep on the breast for night time feeds.  It's night time, they should be asleep.  However, during the day times, it would be great if you could start to break that feed to sleep association.  If you feel your LO is getting a good feed when she first wakes, most likely a soother will give her the sucking comfort she craves, and that's very normal.  Some babies just needs more sucking than others, but it doesn't necessarily mean they're hungry.
One method you could try for getting your LO to sleep is Happiest Baby on the Block by Harvey Karp.  You can find his DVD's at the library, on Youtube or buy them online. His teachings are inline with BW, he just offers a slightly different motion to help babies fall asleep.  It worked really well with DS1!  I couldn't use it on DS2 because he has reflux.  He does say his technique is for babies 3 months and under but I used it until DS1 was 4months. 
Most babies of your DD's age are awake for 1hr to 1hr and 20min.  I believe she is 9 weeks now?  I'm not a huge advocate of letting your LO stay awake until they crash because, for us, that results in the 30 minute OT nap and that's just retched.    Whatever you choose to do, you need to stick with it for a solid week before you're likely to see any results.  So I would a) keep asking us questions until you understand what you want to do, b)sit down with DH, or not, and make a plan for how you will handle naps and WU's during the day and then stick with it. 

[mothergoose]

Thanks for reply...yes have a sling and a lot of the 30min naps above were in sling today...she tends to have short naps no matter where she is but at least sling is preferable to holding for nap. I dont tend to feed to sleep during day usually but today as she had gorged during the early hours she didnt eat during her first A so ended up being due  a feed on waking from nap so i took it as a handy way to extend it.....but you are right she does use me as a pacifier and is not interested in a dummy at all...will only suck for a minute tops if i hold it in then she pushes it out.
I was thinking of trying to get her into a routine before trying again with shushpat...preferably with longer naps and a better nighttime sleep. Think sleep training will be easier if i can get an A that suits her but struggling to do this.....do you think i should shorten my A from the current 1hr from above easy? Or are the short naps developmental for her/prop issue do you think? For the time being i am still trying to work on settling her outside of my arms for at least one daytime nap. Yes she is 9 weeks now.
Thanks for your help

[lauradj]

I've attached our A time link for you below.  I have it bookmarked and I still consult it all the time.  With my LO's I tend to not rush them with the A times, just because that doesn't work for them.  DS2 is 5.5 months and he's just now at 2.25-2.5 hrs, usually 2.25 because he just can't stay up any longer.
I would recommend you stick with an hour, to an hour and fifteen minutes of A time for now.  Don't back track because that'll be too little.  At 9 weeks, the short naps can definitely be developmental.  Some babies iron themselves out within a week, others take a solid month.  However if you couple the short naps with your breast as a prop, it might prolong things.  I hesitate to tell you not to use your breast for comfort, that is what they are for after all, but I think in this particular case it is becoming a prop.  Did your other child find their thumb eventually?  I think it took DS2 two-three months to really and truly find his thumb, so now he refuses the pacifier.     
Something I did struggle to learn with my first, and had to relearn with my second because they're each unique, is their mantra cries vs. "I need you!" cry.  From the get go, DS2 has always had more powerful lungs and it took me quite a while to realize that his mantra cry actually was similar to DS1's but much louder.  So I used to go in far too soon, is that a possibility?  Do you think you're going in too soon in an attempt to head off the WU?  I did have retrain myself for a solid two weeks to stop and really listen to DS2's cry.  Eventually I realized that he was just chatting to himself, albeit rather loudly, and I was misreading the situation. If I left him for 10mins, he just nodded off to sleep again.  However, his "I need you!" cry is very desperate, and literally pulls right at your heart.  It tends to come on very quickly and that's when I know to get in there and help.  Now he doesn't wake at all at the end of his sleep cycle, or if he does, he's not vocal about it. 
Just some thoughts.  I hope I answered some of your questions.  Please ask for clarification if I didn't!

Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

[mothergoose]

Thanks so much for your help. Yes maybe i do jump in too soon with trying to extend naps....will try listening for ten min or so next time she is in her swing. She has most naps in sling though so im right there anyway and even shushing and rocking usually wont extend sling naps..
She cant find her thumb as she is swaddled. Have tried leaving one hand out at top of swaddle but she tends to just get frustrated when she cant get it....i suppose how will she ever learn if i keep swaddling her though?
How long would you give to extending a nap? I tend to try twenty min before quitting.
Its so hard to think about sleep training again as i know we are starting out on such a bad base of overtiredness....would love to get the short naps fixed first

[lauradj]

Tracy suggested you try for 45 minutes and then get baby up and going.  I'd say use your gut.  With DS1, I only ever gave it 20-25 minutes because I knew he was not going to go back to sleep.  With DS2...I don't think I stayed in his room as long because I simply couldn't with two under two.  I went in, offered the pacifier or I'd stroke his little head, tell him everything was alright and he was just going to sleep and then I'd leave.  If I had to go in again, I would gently pick him up and hold him against my shoulder because it usually meant there was a burp trapped and that would generally allow him to pass out again.  If he still wouldn't settle, I got him up and set the pattern in motion.