About to start pick up/put down with 4 month old

[lmuhlhauser]

Hello Fellow Baby Whisperers,

I am about to start PU/PD with our sweet baby to extend his naps and work on moving him to a 4 hour schedule.  I just wanted to write a note because I know this process is hard.  He is our 4th child and very similar to our 2nd, who needed help with sleep around 4 months and was never really a great sleeper until we did PU/PD for naps, and then he was golden and loved to sleep.  The other 2 (esp the 3rd) transitioned rather easily to 4-hour schedule and to 2 hour naps.  But this time around has been very, very, very hard.  And it is coupled with having so many other needs to meet in the family.  I am praying continually that we can do this to help with the peace of the home.  30-45 min naps are tough on all of us, as I am being pulled in so many directions and our DS wakes and is fussy and out of sorts.

I am a bit nervous because he is a touchy/sensitive baby, and he has never really been able to be up for too long before he is tired and overstimulated.  I could still put him down 1 hour after getting up and he would go to sleep.  But then the schedule is way off b/c he wakes after 30-45 mins and at most I have fed him just 2-2.5 hours before. . . So I am praying I can gently extend his wake time and his naps.

So anyway, I just wanted to write this because not too many people I know will do this--- and it helps to have support.  My loving husband will help but in the midst of crying (the baby and me! he is more likely to say that BW does not work and to forget it.  But I know that sticking it out makes such a difference for everyone.  I have to "start as I mean to go on".

Thank you for any encouragement/support you can provide.
Lorna

[lily_layne]

Sorry your post was missed. We are here to support you

Some touchy/spirited babies find PU/PD too stimulating. If you find that's the case I know there's mamas on here that can suggest some modifications. Also, keep in mind that some LO's just won't do 2 hour naps. My DD did the odd 2 hr nap but mostly 1.5 hrs and it really stressed me out when it shouldn't have.

[lmuhlhauser]

Thank you so much.  I appreciate it.  He seems to be doing well with the PU/PD but it is taking awhile.  Today was the worst day with it--- Day 3.  I can't remember but I think I read somewhere about regression when going thru this process?

The hard part is he will fall back asleep and then jerk awake.  This will happen repeatedly during the PU/PD process.  So frustrating.  I am caught between wondering if I should put him to bed sooner (so prevent being overtired) but needing to move him to a 4 hr schedule (which may be why his naps are so short and keep getting shorter). 

I am wondering about wake-to-sleep to potentially cut down the time I am in there, as we have 3 other small children who need me as well.

Thank you so much for your help.  It means so much to have support.  This can be maddening at times.  I just keep loving on him and knowing that he wants to rest and I do, too.
 

[Emami]

Hi hun, I saw your other post earlier and just came back to reply to it but it's gone.  Did you want to just stick to this thread for advice and support?  I can't remember exactly what your other post had said, but one thing that stuck out to me was that his A time is pretty low for his age, so I think your nap troubles are more to do with needing a 4hr routine than being OT.  Do you want to post your EASY, maybe something will stand out that could be changed to helps naps rather than needing PUPD.  Also, have you tried ssh/pat as PUPD is usually a last resort.

[lmuhlhauser]

Hello--
Thank you so much for your response.  I would love to put down his schedule--- we are working toward a 4 hr schedule.  I have been having the hardest time juggling everyone and everything and this darn shush patting and pick up put down.  Some days it's fine--- this morning he took a great 2 hr nap-- no intervention--- but yesterday afternoon I was shush pattting for 1.25 hrs.  So frustrating.

I will write more when I can--- I feel frantic with time as we school our kids at home too so it's so hard right now to do all this.  But my main question is-- when he wakes early from a nap, he is quiet sometimes, for a bit--- just flopping his feet, then he fusses but not really cries--- mantra cry if anything.  He has been doing that right now for about 35 mins--- awake, but mostly quiet but then mantra cries then quiet again.  Should I go in???  I don't want to mess him up if he's trying to put himself to sleep but at the same time I don't want him to feel abandoned.  I'm so exhausted.  This is day 18.  He is a sweet sensitive touchy and at times tough baby.  I love him so much but this is so hard.  Sometimes when I go in and work with him he doesn't even fall back asleep.  I wonder if I should do wake-to-sleep but I never know if he's going to wake or not.

Thank you for ANY help/encouragement,
One exhausted mama

[Emami]

The way he's waking up still sounds UT to me hun. I wouldn't go in as if he's not really crying there's nothing to settle yk?  It seems like he's trying but isn't tired enough to transition into the next sleep cycle.  What's his A time now?  You definitely sound busy but when you get a chance I/we would be happy to look at his routine

[lmuhlhauser]

Thank you so much for your help.  I feel so alone in this process.  It is maddening.  I feel like I am losing my mind at times.  He was doing GREAT a week ago--- doing 2, 2 hour naps with minimal help and a catnap with a 4-hr routine of  eating at 8, 12, 4, 6:30, and 8:30, then asleep for the night. 

Now, he seems to have massively regressed this week.  I took our 2 oldest to the ballet last Friday and my husband had him for a nap which he has never done before.  He barely slept for my husband and, since then, has not slept well for naps.  I don't know if it's a growth spurt or what but this is awful.  I feel like it's all my work down the drain.  He is so much fussier and awake time is not near as enjoyable. 

What is maddening is that we have stayed home for weeks to allow him to sleep in his crib, but I see NO progress today at all.  This is hard to keep all 4 kids home for weeks for this sleep training and then to see NO results.  It is nuts.  I don't get it.  If I put him down early to avoid being OT, he wakes.  If I allow him to be up longer, he wakes-- not sure if OT/overstimulated. 

Here is the schedule as of last week:
 E 8
A 8:30-9:30; quiet time in room apart from the other children/stimulation 9:40-9:50
wind down 9:40
S 10-12
E 12
A 12:30-1:30; quiet time in room 1:30-1:45; wind down with Mommy 1:45-1:55
S 1:55-3:55
E 3:55
A 4:25-5:30/6
S cat nap
E 6:00/6:30 (nurses while rest of family eats dinner)
A 7-8/8:30
E 8:30-9:30 cuddles, nurses, often falls asleep
S 9:00/9:30 until morning

BUT this week has been a wreck.  Here is today
E 7:10 (had to feed early as I had an appt and had to leave him with my husband)
A 7:50-9:20
S 9:33-10:30.  Woke with mantra cry.  I wasn't sure if I should go in.  Finally went in when escalated.  He went back to sleep but kept popping back awake.  It is so hard to try to put him to sleep, he's almost there, and then his eyes pop open.  I worked with him for over an hour.  I felt like crying.  In the meantime, my other 3 little ones needed me but patiently waited. 
Y no such thing at this point.
E 11:10
A was not sure what to do here, as he woke early so technically needed to go down at 12:30 so as not to be up too long--- he is very touchy and gets OT/OS quickly.  But at the same time then he'd be SO far ahead of schedule.  I don't like trying to make the decision of when to put him down when I have no idea what he's going to do.
S 1:00-1:30 (went in between-- technically should have gone down around 1:30 to be on 4 hr schedule but was up and didn't go back to sleep at 10:30)
Shush pat 1:30-3-- but was VERY hard as he went back to sleep almost instantly but kept popping back awake.  Then mantra cries, then pop awake, then asleep, etc.  I don't want to help him too much that he depends on it.  Almost asleep at 2:45.  I got him up at 2:55, both of us tired and upset.
E:  3:00
A:  again, not sure what to do here.  He was awake at 1:30 so technically should go to sleep at 3:30 as that is 2 hrs.  He was fussy.  Put him down at 3:45.
S:  3:45-4:15.  Woke with burst of crying, mantra cry.  I went up to help him, and he then got quiet. He is on/off right now.  I don't know what to do.  I don't want him to feel abandoned but at the same time I don't want to help him too much that I become a prop.  He has no other props. 

I need help.  I am so upset.    This has been the HARDEST sleep training we've ever had.  My husband wants to give up on it but I want to have hope.

Thank you for any help you can provide. It really means a lot.

[lmuhlhauser]

oops!  I realized I had the times off a bit---

1st E was at 7:30 rather than 7:10.
2nd E was at 11:30 rather than 11:10.

I ended up shush patting for a good 40 mins for that last nap and he finished it out asleep for another 30 mins.  First time in a few days that he went back to sleep with the shush patting.  It's so confusing b/c the FIRST day of this, he was able to be shush patted for 5-15 mins and back to sleep.  Now it's longer and I have to do PUPD sometimes.

I so appreciate the encouragement and guidance.  It really helps me hang on when I just feel so sad.  I can't meet everyone's needs when I'm either sleep training so much or have a very fussy tired baby. 

[Emami]

He is almost 5 months now?  And his A time is still at 2hrs?  I still think he is UT but because he's not getting good long naps he is ending up OT.  I would work on extending the first A time and see if his first nap improves as that will set you up better for the rest of the day.  But really the 1hr naps and taking a long time and lots of encouragement to resettle are why I think UT.  Personally I wouldn't try for so long to get him back down as it is probably just frustrating for both of you, and you don't want to end up housebound.  Half an hour or so would be my limit and if it's not happening just get him up and carry on with the day.  Easier said than done I know, it's hard to get on with things when you're stressed about sleep, but I think you will all feel better not being stuck in a bedroom.

[lmuhlhauser]

Thank you so much for your response.  I am just feeling so sad. 

My LO is 4 months, 2 weeks.  He has always had a hard time with A time.  I am wondering where in Tracy's books is about UT?  I have read about it several times on the forums and it makes sense but I can't seem to find it in her books.  The reason I ask is b/c my LO has always been easily OT and OS and I just don't know how well he will be able to push A times, as he is very touchy.  But it does indeed make sense.  I saw somewhere the link about average A times and I tried to find that in my book but couldn't.  The only thing I could find was the 4-hr EASY.  This morning, I pushed it past 2 hrs and the 1st nap was worse.  I went in to do W2S as that has shown more success than waiting for the 30/45 min cry and trying to settle with shush pat and PUPD.  It took 20 mins of patting and he seemed to be back to sleep but then cried 10 mins later.  I went back in and he immediately closed his eyes but then couldn't get all the way settled.  . .  on/off alseep.

He will do that consistently--- once he is fully awake, he will close his eyes and start to settle with shush patting but then won't go all the way to sleep more often than not.  I can't figure it out.  He will fall asleep, then turn his head with his eyes open, then go back to sleep, then open them again, etc.  He does not wake happy--- cries and does not play happily as if he's had a good rest.   He does sleep great at night and will wake in the early morning and put himself back to sleep. 

Thank you so much for your help and input.  This is just very hard for me this time around--- these children are such a blessing, but the transition has been so hard. 

[haleytreat]

I am having the same issue with my 4.5 month old. Curious to see what people on what to do. Its very frustrating.

[Emami]

Oh, don't feel sad Babies really are hard work and it can take a while to figure out what they are trying to tell you. I'm still trying to work out my DD2's sleep needs. They are all different and it's not one size fits all. That's one of the reasons why BW is so great - it's a routine rather than a schedule so it suits your individual baby. The routines in the book are just guidelines, not many babies will fit to them exactly. Sorry, I lost my books in a move a few months ago so I'm not sure exactly where/if things like UT and average A times are mentioned.  You do need to give any changes a few days though to give LO a chance to adjust and see if it works.

I hope you see improvements soon. 4 months is a sucky time all round with sleep, I think most of us here have struggled with short naps at some time around this age. There's a sleep regression and lots of developmental stuff going on. They often just sort it out on their own eventually, but in the meantime you need to make sure you're sticking to an age appropriate routine as far as possible so that when things start to click into place you're not stuck with short A times and playing catch up.

Haleytreat, have you posted on the sleep boards? Hope your LO starts sleeping better too but you will get more eyes and help if you start a thread

[haleytreat]

Yes I just did. thank you!