EMW

[Vicks735]

Just wondering if you could offer any advice here. My 9-month old baby wakes up anytime from 5am (crying in his cot) and the only way I can get him back to sleep (and this only works sometimes) is feeding him back to sleep in bed next to me. I don't mind him coming into bed with us if only he fell back to sleep! I really don't want him crying on his own - although not sure if you'd suggest this anyway.
Our routine often looks like this:
530 wake up
E breastfeed on waking up; solids around 730
A
S 9-1020
E breastfeed on waking up; solids around 12/1230
A
S 2.20-330
E breastfeed on waking up; solids around 530; 7oz of formula at 700
S asleep at 715

My son goes to sleep on his own and will wake up between 4 and 5 for a breastfeed - occasionally once more but not often. Also, when I put him down again after his feed he often will cry and it takes aboyt 10 mins for me to settle him back to sleep - with my hand on his tummy. I can be pretty confident that he'll wake again 40-45 mins or 1hr 20 mins max later.

Do I need to tweak our routine? Would love some help here as these EMW have been going on for months.

[Vicks735]

Just to add my son woke this morning at 410 and chatted to himself for half an hour before crying. I went in to breastfeed/resettle him but it didn't work so he ended up in bed with us and did manage to fall asleep. Do you think feeding to sleep at this time in the morning is the problem? I sometimes think my son is an early riser but he is definitely more cheerful when he wakes after c11 hrs sleep rather than 10hrs. The chatting this morning was a new thing and seemed to coincide with him starting to imitate a few baby words.

[trimbler]

Hey there, sorry this has been missed so far, I don't have much time now but will get back to you properly tomorrow Just for now, I'd say remember it's not so unusual for a 9mo to still need a night feeding, which for you seems to be happening around 4/5, but if he's not settling after the feed then there's probably something else going on, perhaps UT/OT but hard to tell which just looking at the timings since some LOs would need more sleep than this over 24h, whilst for others it would be about right. So please could you tell me how he is during the day? Does he seem really tired a lot of the time, or is he pretty happy and seems well rested? Does he seem to take a full feed at 4/5am or is he not really interested? Sorry to be rambling I'm practically falling asleep now but will try and reply properly once I know a little more in answer to those questions and when I'm more awake

[trimbler]

Ok back again another question - does he sleep through the rest of the night? EMW can be OT but in that case I'd expect him to showing signs of being OT during the day? Is he? If not, he may just be low sleep needs (LSN), and you may even be approaching the 2-1 nap transition sooner than you thought. Also bear in mind that he may be in a developmental spurt at the moment (hence the babbling and imitating words) but if these EWs have been going on for months (((hugs))) then I suspect there's something else going on. Does he wake up from naps happy or crying?

If you could answer these questions and those from my last post then I should have a better idea of what might be going on and how to tackle this, EWs are not fun

[Vicks735]

Thank you so much for getting back to me. I've already found so much invaluable advice on these boards.
Generally LO is a happy chappie although often very tired at the end of the day and first thing in the morning as he rubs his eyes and wants me to nurse him but can be distracted by toys and does perk up after a while.
When he wakes in the night he does seem very interested in being breastfed (perhaps for comfort too?) and after about 10 minutes his eyes close and his pace slows and that's when I take him off and lay him back in his cot. I assume at this point he's comfort sucking but perhaps I need to leave him on for longer? More often than not he cries out immediately after I've laid him down (as if he's upset to be taken off) and will often wake himself up completely as he gets more and more upset as I try to resettle him - lying my arms across his arms and legs. Often at this point I bring him into bed just in case he'll fall back to sleep as we never start the day properly until 630 at the earliest.
This morning he woke at 520am and couldn't be resettled but at 920 I put him down in his cot and he slept for 1hr 55 mins - although I did have to resettle him briefly after 40 mins. He also slept for an hour in the pram from 3-4pm. He was asleep by 710.
Hoping this gives you more information.

Just seen your new reply. Nights are a bit hit and miss. This last week he woke only once 3 or 4 nights but the rest woke up once or twice more - although he can be resettled without milk. I think it was Thursday he woke up at about 11 and 1240 as well as 4ish. Last night he woke at 1ish and I did give him milk because we had a bad nap day and he was very tired and upset at bedtime so didn't eat much dinner which is unusual for him. There's definite elements of OT but not all day. He's never woken up from a nap in his cot without crying. His afternoon naps are mostly in the pram and the only time he doesn't definitely wake up crying is if the pram is still moving; if I've parked the pram up he will often cry when he wakes.
I completely agree, EW are not fun at all.
Thank you!

[trimbler]

Thanks for your replies to those questions. Hmmm... He does sound a bit OT to me, due to waking up crying from naps and being really tired first thing in the morning and in the evening. Which isn't surprising, as his nights are quite short and often broken, but I just wanted to check how he was during the day as we would need to tackle it differently if he were just lsn. Two things to note before I forget:

1) EW is often a result of being OT, so, counterintuitively, an earlier BT can actually help. I know it's scary as you don't want him to wake even earlier, but it does sound like he needs to catch up on some sleep, and EBT can help him to do this.

2) Sometimes LOs can use a long morning nap to catch up on lost night sleep Sometimes we need to wake them from the morning nap so that they can't catch up until later on - eg with an EBT. Oh I know it's horrible and you just want to let them sleep after a bad/short night, but that pattern can exacerbate EW

I just wondered about the afternoon nap in the pram - is that because you need to be out at that time anyway or because it's the only way he'll settle? You see, I was wondering if you've considered trying a shorter morning nap and a longer, earlier afternoon nap? That way, he can't catch up on lost night sleep during the morning nap, and hopefully he'll be able to take an EBT and catch up at night. That said, it can be hard to find just the right morning nap length and A times to make this work, so it may take some trial and error... How would you feel about that? I personally liked to (well, had to for other reasons) fix the start of the morning nap, and, like you, I'd start the day at 6.30am no matter when they woke, then do first nap at 9.30. That might be a good place to start for you, as it's similar to what you seem to be doing already and it sounds like he should be able to handle it. Then we need to find a good nap length and 2nd A time to get a longer pm nap... With 'official' WU at 6.30 I'd aim for the pm nap around 1.30pm I think at this age, but bear in mind that mine had A times on short side, perhaps it should be much later for yours! But we have to start somewhere, and if the A times are a bit short to begin with it might not be a problem as he needs to catch up on some sleep anyway. So here's a suggestion, but feel free to tweak if you think it won't work for him:

(EW)
6.30 get up
9.30-10.30 nap
1.30-3 nap 2
6 EBT

This is only a suggested starting point after these EMWs, you might find you get rubbish naps with the shorter A times during the day but at least in that case you can still do EBT and hopefully catch up at night... If you do find these A times are too short, even for catching up, then you can shorten the morning nap to 45mins, keeping the time of the pm nap the same, and see if that helps. The BT I suggested would only be whilst he's catching up, eventually you might end up with something like:

6.30 up
9.30-10 nap 1
1-3 nap 2
7.30 BT

- depending on what your LO's overall sleep needs are, of course, but that's hard to guess when it sounds like he's not quite getting enough sleep at the moment.

Sorry if rambly, how does that sound as the beginnings of a plan? Don't forget you know him best, so if anything I suggest doesn't sound right to you, I won't be offended

[Vicks735]

Thanks so much for your detailed reply. We had a pretty horrendous night last night. Poor baby woke at 1145ish and didn't fall back to sleep until 230! He was trying so hard to sleep but couldn't fall into a deep sleep - he'd constantly wake about 15-20 mins after resettling back to sleep. OT? He also woke up at 517 and again slept for 20min bursts until 640ish. I also thought teeth might be the cause here too? He didn't seem to be in pain but the 20min bursts of sleep is very unusual for him. He also felt quite warm although no temperature.

Right, I'm going to give the below plan a go. An EBT is scary though. Can I please ask - if we have x2 40 min naps only (ie he doesn't manage the longer naps until we crack the right A times) shall I just proceed with an EBT and no cat nap? How long should I keep the A times the same before increasing if I'm getting short naps? I do like the sound of fixed naps. The pm nap is in the pram as we tend to go out to a class etc mid-morning so LO sleeps as we walk outdoors.

[trimbler]

Oh dear (((hugs))) those kind of short bursts of sleep are often associated with pain/discomfort, so teeth could be a culprit, any signs of teething? Did you medicate for the pain?

It's hard to really say what time EBT should be or whether you'll need a CN to get you through, I'd just suggest you look at how the whole day has been and add up the A time he's had overall. So if he woke at 5 but you kept him in his cot until 6.30, I'd probably count that as half time, ie consider it as equivalent to 45mins of being up, rather than 1.5h. Same for any naps you try to resettle if he doesn't actually go back to sleep but remains fairly calm. So, as I said, add up the A time he's already had, and think about what effect a CN would have - use it if you don't think he's accrued enough A time during the day due to short naps but wouldn't manage a long A to BT. If however, he's had loads of A time due to EW and poor napping, then you'll want to go for EBT instead. Does that make sense? Looking at what you've posted, it seems like he's doing about 12.5-13h sleep overall (normal for some lsn LOs), but we think he's a bit OT, so to catch up we want to aim for a little more - I can't say for sure how much more but probably 14h max, so you probably want him to have at least 10h A time across the whole day, including the EW. As you see, the top routine I suggested would give him 15h if he did that every day without EW, it is really based on him having an EW. If the EBT works then he'll probably need the A times during the day pushed out fairly soon, but we'll have to see what happens and I'll try to check in regularly to catch up on what you post

But let's not forget the possible discomfort, if you think teeth then medicate for that. Any possible digestive issues, new foods introduced recently, temperature changes in the room, nappy rashes, etc etc...?

[Vicks735]

So here's how the last few days have gone - not exactly according to plan!
Day 1
Asleep - 7 (we tried EBT but he didn't fall asleep until 7 which is only 15 mins or so earlier than normal)
NW: 3.45 for milk
Woke: 5.00; LO did manage to fall asleep (in bed next to me) at 6.15ish and woke at 7.52 so happy!  He's definitely caught up on sleep.
Nap 1: 1215-1.15 (I tried to put him down earlier but he wouldn't settle; woke him after 1 hr)
Nap 2: 4.15-5.45 (I woke him again)
Asleep: 8.20

Day 2
NW: 4.00 for milk; woke up again 4.30; cried until after 5am (I have my hands on his tummy and holding down his arms and legs but he couldn't settle and was getting v upset); asleep again 5.20 in bed next to me; woke briefly at 7.11 (milk for a few mins)
Awake for the day: 8.10
Nap 1: 11.45-1.15 (went swimming so couldn't put him down earlier)
Nap 2: 4.45-5.25 (l woke him up)
Asleep 7.40

Day 3
NW: 3.08; I didn't go in for 15 mins or so but then offered milk and LO settled at 3.40: woke again at 5am! This time I didn't even try to settle him and I just plonked him in bed next to me and he fell asleep quickly (bf to sleep) and stirred at 6.45; woke for the day at 7.15

I now think the bigger problem we have is that LO can't settle in his cot from 4am as he's used to being in bed next to me. I would like him to stay in his cot but don't know how to tackle this?! I feel I don't know what I'm doing in the early hours as the way I settle him earlier in the night (holding down flailing limbs etc) doesn't seem to work early in the early morning unless I'm not giving it enough time? However, I'm getting so tired now as I'm almost waiting to hear him at 5am so hardly sleep between the time I first hear him (today 3ish) until wake up (today at 7ish). Are you able to help with this too? The scheduling too is now all over the place although I'm almost less worried about this part. 

Ps the other night I did offer him CALPOL but he was so worked up he refused to take it. It's been so mild at night I think he was too hot.

[Vicks735]

I was just looking at a few other posts and wondered if there's a bit of separation anxiety as well as a prop of sucking to sleep lingering in the early hours? When LO goes to sleep his little hand will reach out to touch mine as they lie on his tummy. If I move them too soon he will often cry out. After I've given him milk at a NW I need to keep my hand on him for about 20 mins to make sure he falls into a deep sleep. If he's not in a deep sleep he'll call me back into the room. When he's in bed next to me we sleep v close together. He will often cry when I leave a room and enjoys being held a lot. Really not sure how to tackle this at all anymore.

[trimbler]

Hey there, sorry for not getting back to you until now, you may well be right about the separation anxiety, have you seen this? Separation Anxiety Or, as an alternative, this: GRADUALLY WEAN CO-SLEEPING:HELP YOUR BABY TO FALL BACK TO SLEEP ON HIS OWN Have    read and see what you think would suit you both the best whatever you decide, if you want to break the associations then consistency will be best...but if you're not ready for that just yet then I'd just take the easy route and feed him to sleep next to you in bed until you are ready, and don't feel guilty about that either When you are ready, it'll be a case of sticking with it and riding out a few rough early mornings I'm afraid But either way, we can still be thinking about your routine, and it may even be that you decide to take him into bed for a few days to help you both to catch up on sleep and to get a better idea of what routine to aim for, before diving into some consistent sleep training to break the prop. It may even be easier once he's better  rested and in a more stable routine. On the other hand, if it's too strong a prop for him and he starts expecting it at other times, you may decide to jump straight in with it now... Have a think and let me know what you decide

The only thing I'd say about the routine would be that you might find it useful to fix a time in the morning when he gets up, or a window within which you wake him, if for example he's only just got back to sleep and you want him to benefit from that before starting the day. I just feel like his body clock needs to kick in so he knows when it's time to get up for the day. We've gone from getting up at 5.30am to 8am in the space of just a few days, which is probably confusing for his body clock. What time do you want his wake up to be? Pick a time, and then try to stick with it, so do whatever you've decided to do before that time, and if he just manages to get to sleep when you would be waking him up, then go ahead and let him have half an hour max before starting your day. I like to fix the time of the first nap too, but that doesn't work for everyone. I'm just thinking some consistency might help, wdyt?

[Vicks735]

Yes, definitely. I do need to be more consistent as I know that in the long run I'm probably causing more tears. He used to be so good at sleeping in his cot in the morning but even that's gone out of the window now.

I agree about the wake up time. Ideally I'd like it to be 7am but do think that's unrealistic so 630 is fine. This morning he was dozing next to me at 630 but I did wake him up by 7 at least to start to have a more consistent wake up - we had a bad night due to his cough so I'm certainly going to leave any sleep training if needed until he's better. For the next few days I'll follow your plan and put him down for his first nap at 930 and see how that goes. I'll continue to cap the first nap at 45/50 mins max because I did get a 6am wake up with only one n/w on Wed pm/Thurs am which was a great result! Last night was awful but mainly due to his cough so he certainly needed meds and more soothing. Is it best to persevere with the cot in the day? I thought I might try the morning nap in the pram as it's shorter and I can get him to sleep pretty easily in the pram but use the cot in the pm for the longer nap? Once the am nap is established I can then use the cot. As I said he used to nap well in his cot but the last few days he's not settled so I've been using the pram instead which I think might be another mistake of mine.

I really do appreciate your support here. It can be really tough going some days.

[trimbler]

Oh I know, EWs leave you feeling so tired, (((hugs))) and with that cough it's going to be a case of just riding it out to some extent Hope he gets better soon!

Let me know how it goes with the consistent times at the start of the day, I tend to feel that if you set what you can, there are fewer variables to play around with later on in the day. I wouldn't worry too much about the morning nap in the pram for now, as you say if you keep the pm nap consistent in the cot then you might find he'll start to take the am nap in the cot too. If you start giving him all naps in the pram then you may end up creating a prop which will then need to be weaned. Then again bear in mind that it may be easier to reteach him to take his morning nap in the cot now, rather than in a few weeks, especially if you're aiming for a deliberately UT, shorter nap. You know him best though

[Vicks735]

Just thought I'd update you on the great progress we've made this last week. Little man is doing really well and has actually slept through the night 3 times this last week! This is a first for us. We had a couple of rough nights/early mornings (4/5 ish) but for 6 nights now little man has been in his own bed all night which is fantastic. One morning when we woke at 615 he actually woke up chatting to himself.

The early starts are not yet completely behind us but possibly LO is on the low side of the sleep needs? Once he's done about 10hrs sleep it's touch and go whether he'll fall back to sleep again. He does try to but only seems to manage 5-10 mins or so before waking. My husband now does the settling in the early morning which seems to have made a big difference.

Naps are also going pretty well. LO sleeps 40 mins or so (I cap it) at 930 and then 4 hrs after he wakes he sleeps anywhere between 1.5-2 hrs (although more often 1.5hrs). I'm still using the pram for naps but I now feel more confident about tackling the cot again.

A massive thank you for all your help. One further q, should I try BF LO when he wakes around the 530 mark for 10 mins or so then putting him back in his cot to see if that improves his wake up time? He stops crying pretty quickly once my husband goes in to lay his hands on him so i don't think he's ravenous although after 10hrs his tummy must be rumbling a bit. He certainly takes a full feed at 630. I'm just so cautious about going down the whole feeding to sleep path again.

[trimbler]

Yay so glad to hear things are so much better, thanks for updating me

I hesitate to say that he's definitely not needing a bf at 5.30am from a distance, but I can say that many LOs have been happily weaned off night feeds by 9mo so if you don't think he's hungry then he probably isn't. Whether or not you choose to feed at that time anyway is up to you...

He may well be on the very low end of sleep needs, I don't have experience of that myself and usually hear that nights less than 10h tend to be OT nights, but that may well not apply in his case, I'd just monitor how he is during the day to see how he's coping, you'll probably soon see if OT is creeping up on you