10 WO wont nap longer than 30 minutes and wakes 3+ times nightly

[alwaystired]

Hi everyone. My DS was a textbook baby until he was 4 weeks. I had recorded his sleep cycles then and he would go down for a nap every 90 minutes and nap for about 2 hours and wake to feed.

From 4-7 weeks he would wake at night every 3 hours to feed (I bf and ff due to low supply), go to bed from 11pm and sleep until about 9 or 10 am in that 3 hour cycle. His naps dwindled down to about 1 hour long.

Now from 7 weeks to currently, the little stinker has been having EXACTLY 30 minute naps in the morning from when he wakes up (usually 630ish). FWIW, I've been doing harvy karps 5s's and putting DS to sleep/nap in his swing from 5 weeks on because he would wake instantly once I put him down from being in my arms (I tried shh/pat this week and it just caused crazy meltdowns). Once he is asleep, I put him in his crib with no issues (I wake him up slightly to do this), as he falls back to sleep. So I basically, swaddle, swing, white noise. He doesn't like a pacifier.

He is fighting sleep for the past week. I know there is a growth spurt at 12 weeks which will cause frequent waking and sleep refusal, but its the short naps and fighting sleep for the past 3 weeks are killing me. With that said, the past week he has been sleeping 2 hours from either 1-3 pm or 2-4pm, but I've been waking him up (Ive only done this because Tracy and Harvey both said to do this). If I were to let him sleep, I think he would go for 3 hours.

I'm still going on the 90 minute cycles (once he wakes up, put him back down 90 minutes from there). Should I be keeping him up a bit longer in the morning or a bit shorter? He is very crotchety when it comes to his morning naps and I can't tell if hes over or under tired. Do I just let him sleep longer than the 2 hours? I put him to sleep at 730, but he just sleeps another 30 minutes where we repeat the whole process again until about 9 pm, despite doing the same routine of bath, massage, jammies, bed at 7 pm. Also, should I quite the swing? And if so, how do you teach a baby to fall asleep? Myself and mother both have a sleep disorder and fear he will have it too!

Thanks,
Sarah

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Hi there and welcome to Bw forums

It's way too early to be thinking about sleep disorders so let's put that worry out of your head for now okay?  Mums have enough to worry about without adding to it.  Your LO is very normal for this age and despite the BW books may in parts sound like LOs can get on to fabulous routines from day 1 Tracy was also pretty clear, EASY is not easy. Sleep training takes lots of time and effort and when taken on with a young baby it is a very gradual process.

Based on the information you've given I would suggest trying a slightly longer A time in the morning before nap 1.
The 90 mins is a good time for a 3 month old (yours is still younger than this) based on our guidance times but I think if he has always done 90 mins and has slept well on it in the past it may be worth a try on longer.  The longer nap in the afternoon shows that actually he can transition between sleep cycles when he is very tired (after a day full of 30 min naps he will have accumulated tiredness which seems to help to some degree).
How about trying 1hr 40 A time?
You could also try a W2S at around 25 mins to help him transition (adapt the time to his cycle length - looks like yours might have a 30 min cycle rather than 40 or 45 mins, I can't say for certain of course, just using the info you have given to have a guess at this point).
How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)
Please see naps option 1 for a description.

I also used Karps 5S (well I think we used 3 of them) in the early days before I discovered BW
If your LO is really against the shush/pat I found that I could gradually wean rocking by doing less and less in arms, getting my DS now and continuing to "rock" with a firm hand on him, the very small movement that Karp used, and this can be reduced and reduced in the same way patting is reduced, then on-off-on-off, more if needed, less when possible and gradually you can teach LO to nod off after you have stopped rocking.  You can continue to sleep train in the this gentle and gradual way whilst at the same time tweaking the routine.

If you try the W2S you can also use a firm hand on LO or a firm hand slightly rocking if it helps, rather than the patting.

Hope this helps. Let us know how you get on.

[alwaystired]

Thanks for replying. Today Ive tried a shush/rock in my arms for his morning naps (instead of the swing) and once he got the '7 mile stare' I layed him down in his bed continuing with the shhh and just a firm hand on his belly. This worked for both naps well. I tried the w2s on his first nap to no success, 2nd morning nap he stirred at 30 minutes and I tried the shush/firm hand and he went back to sleep (yay) until my dog barked up a storm at a knock on the door (booo!), but at least it was an hour nap. His afternoon nap was a bit of a meltdown. I started the routine at 1h 20 minutes of awake time (instead of my usual 1h 15 mintues (10 minutes is quiet time, the other 5 for him to fall asleep, thus 90 minutes) and he screamed like a banshee.  I wasn't sure if he was tired yet, we had his uncle over for a visit so I thought he may have been overstimulated. Either way, he wasn't happy to go to bed. Maybe he really wasn't that tired. I just assumed he was.  I will try the 1h 40 minutes today for his next nap and see how it goes. I hope to be able to wean the rock/jiggle but he still has that reflex where he quiets down from being jiggled.

[alwaystired]

Ok, I just tried 1:40 and it took only 3 minutes of shush/hold (no jiggles this time) and a soother! Heres hoping for something longer than 30 minutes.

IF he naps longer than 2 hours given that he has frequent cat naps, should I wake him or let him sleep? Just for future reference. Thanks

Sarah

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Today Ive tried a shush/rock in my arms for his morning naps (instead of the swing) and once he got the '7 mile stare' I layed him down in his bed continuing with the shhh and just a firm hand on his belly. This worked for both naps well.

Brilliant!

I tried the w2s on his first nap to no success, 2nd morning nap he stirred at 30 minutes and I tried the shush/firm hand and he went back to sleep (yay

Two thoughts on this.
1. You might have gone in a little too late, the guidance on W2S times are for LOs who are waking at 40 mins so you need to adapt the time and go in at more like 20/25 mins and you may need to stay until deep sleep (Tracy sayd 20 mins but that is almost time to go back in for your LO so perhaps not that long - it's a training method though so remember it's not for ever if you do end up in there almost the whole nap for a few days) however if you are lucky and time things just right you could possibly be in and out in 5 mins just to see him through the transition.
2. It could be that he was UT for nap 1 so the W2S was not successful. After a short nap, by the time he got to nap 2 he had some additional level of tiredness making W2S more successful.

10 minutes is quiet time, the other 5 for him to fall asleep, thus 90 minutes

Tracy said WD is 20 mins and in the early days with my DS I could have set a clock by him, he took exactly 20 mins to fall to sleep and covered all the stages.  By 10 wks though he was pretty vocal about his opinions on where to sleep and when, he wanted a very short WD, upstairs 3 min song in arms (with swaying) put down awake and left.  You might find your WD time is still perfect if you go for the longer A time, or you might find he is happy with the A time if he doesn't have to spend so long being quiet prior to sleep.  You know him best, just something to think about or try.

I hope to be able to wean the rock/jiggle but he still has that reflex where he quiets down from being jiggled.

Mine is 5yo now and has never out grown the love of a jiggle.  He has been an independent sleeper since early on but if/when he needed help (and they do, illness, teething and so on) it would be a jiggle or a back rub, even rubbing is kind of jiggling.  If I accidentally start patting he says "can you stop hitting me now, it's not helping".  if shush and a firm hand is all he needs that is brilliant, if he needs a little jiggle it's ok as you will reduce again as he calms.

Ok, I just tried 1:40 and it took only 3 minutes of shush/hold (no jiggles this time) and a soother! Heres hoping for something longer than 30 minutes.

Yay! Great news

IF he naps longer than 2 hours given that he has frequent cat naps, should I wake him or let him sleep? Just for future reference.

It's up to you really. Mine only over slept when he was ill and when they are poorly they just need to sleep when they can so I always just expected the routine to go off track.  If you want a consistent routine then you need to find out how long he would nap if left alone and if this has a positive or negative effect on the overall routine then work from there.

When he starts to nap longer your routine is going to change and after initial celebrations you might feel things are going down hill because things are different to what you are used to. Have patience though because WU, nap and BTs can all be tweaked to accommodate his sleep needs, A time needs and so on.

How about try this out for a few days (the A time and the help with transitioning in the cot) and see how things go?  Then come and post your EAS times and we can have a look if anything could do with another tweak?
Oh and, if you use the longer A time and the W2S doesn't work in the cot and he fully wakes and cries escalate you'll need to pick up and calm him in arms then put down again when drowsy or asleep.

[alwaystired]

Thanks again for replying. Ive been doing 1h40m wake times and he tends to go down without much fussing.
However, now I've gotten myself into a whole other pickle. I should have listened to my instincts on this one, but I took several peoples 'advice'. I've been giving him a soother to fall asleep. He never liked it at first and all my friends and family were like 'keep trying!'. So of course now he likes it to fall asleep with it. My issue is, because hes only 11 weeks now, it falls out on him when hes drifting to sleep and he can't put it back in, so I'm constantly leaning over his crib shoving it back in his mouth until hes asleep. Once hes asleep, he either spits it out our I take it out.  Do I just stop using the soother? Ive tried many different nipples and there's only one brand that he likes (hes also mildly tongue tied so he's limited).
He still only sleeps for 30 minutes, but sometimes that first morning nap will be an hour long. When he awakes from these short naps, hes always giggly which makes me think he really only needs the 30 minutes?

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Hi there
Great to hear he's going down without much fuss now Wonderful!

The pros and cons of paci use hey?
This is really somethign I suggest you read around on as you will need to make the decision along with your DH.
There is some evidence to suggest that paci use reduces the risk of SIDS so there is a positive aspect.
If a baby is used to using a paci for sleep it is not advised to go cold turkey (ie remove it from use) on dropping it before 6 or 12 months old (sorry, the exact age has not come to mind just now and I am a bit short on time to go looking) as removing a paci cold turkey from a baby can increase the SIDS risk.  So there is that to think about.
A LO can eventually re-plug but not for a long while yet.  Many people who use the paci find themselves getting up multiple times per night to re-plug until LO can do it themselves. If you swaddle then LO can't replug until the swaddle is gone and he has good use of his hands, he also needs to find it in his cot.
Tracy's BW advice was to use pre-sleep to allow baby to work off their sucking reflex and then remove when the rapid deep sucking has stopped and from then you don't give it back so actually it is a pre-sleep soother not a throughout sleep prop.

It sounds like you are right on the cusp now of needing to decide which way to head. If your LO is not reliant on the paci throughout sleep yet then you might prefer to remove it gradually the BW way.  But on the other hand you might choose to continue use throughout naps and nights because of the reduced SIDS risk.
I really can't tell you what to do.

If you are unable to find reliable sources of information to help you make an informed decision on this let me know and I'll get some links for you.

Mine would not take a paci so the decision was easily made.

[alwaystired]

Ok. So it turns out my DS CAN self settle (well sorta?). I cheated today and we laid down together on my bed for a nap (we NEVER do that). He was all swaddled and had the 7 mile stare and he slowly closed his lids and fell asleep. So tonight I fed him, rocked him and cuddled him. Then I swaddled him and laid him in his crib. He protested but I don't want to be picking him up all the time to soothe him, so instead, i shushed  him and either kept a hand on his chest or stroked his head. He cried the whole time, but it was more like a sad cry so I knew physically he was ok. It took 45 minutes but he eventually fell asleep. I just found pu/pd was too stimulating.

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Are you still getting the 30 min naps?

[alwaystired]

Yes I am. I have tried all the tips and tricks from stroking cheek before the next sleep cycle to popping in a soother. I was desperate last week to get him to nap because he actually STOPPED all naps altogether so I apoped by just letting him nurse to sleep in my arms. I get hour naps that way. He is 13/14 weeks now and he is either having a growth spurt or starting the 4 month sleep regression early. He will have a few nights where he wakes every 1.5-2 hours (kill me now!) but then after that he will have several nights of sleeping from 8pm-3am, feed and then 330am-8 which is wonderful. Im just starting to accept that he is a poopy napper he fights these naps so hard, sleeps for 30 and wakes up crying (but not when hes in my arms).

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Have you tried a longer A time?
30 min nap and waking crying are often thought to be OT but if you've been on a low end A time for a while and not tried longer it may be worth a go.  My DS would wake crying from an UT nap because he was tired enough to be upset at waking but not tired enough to sleep a decent length.  When I increased his A time he would manage to transition into the next cycle and wake much happier.
Might be worth a shot?

[alwaystired]

I actually think the problem is undiagnosed silent reflux. He has EVERY symptom of it and short naps a frequent wakings are just some of the symptoms. I noticed when i eat dairy he gets really fussy so im going to cut it out for 2 weeks and see if that improves his sleep. So far having him nap on an incline on the swing has resulted in less fighting for naps so I may be on to something. I have tried a
2 hour wake time but the 30 minutes still hapeen

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I actually think the problem is undiagnosed silent reflux.

Oh dear
Well that will certainly add to disturbed sleep.
Have you considered a trip to the doc to see if meds help?

[alwaystired]

turns out he DOES have silent reflux AND cows milk protein allergy. We just started him on meds which have helped night sleep beautifully and the daytime "colic" is gone.  I can get him to have his first nap in his crib now. Its still short, but its only been 4 days on the meds.  The allergy symptoms should subside in about 2 weeks so we will try these tips then. Hopefully he will be done the 4 month sleep regression then too! Thank you for your help

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Thanks for the update.
Sorry to hear about the reflux and CMP allergy. But great that you found out and great that the discomfort is easing already!

You might find that you can get to grips with a better routine in a week or so. Do feel free to post again for support - I'd suggest a new thread as the issues will be slightly different now that your LO is older and on meds.
Good luck! And hope you all get some better rest