anyone successful with PU/PD, please help!

[needasleepingangel]

I am using PU/PD to help my 5 month-old DD to sleep independently. I have done it 4 days now. She is making a lot of progress in the sense that she always finally falls asleep on her own. But she would always cry when I put her down after 4S wind down. She is crying even more since yesterday. So I really hope anymore who did PU/PD successfully could help me with the following questions.

1. 4S wind down: in the sitting part, did you sit quietly or sing or tell a story? My DD is always trying to look around even though it is very dark. So I sing quietly and tell a bedtime story (usually good night moon). Should I just sit instead?

About PD: when I put her down after 4S, she would always start to cry. It is not mantra cry. Just the kind of "I want you to pat me and stay here" cry. Because usually when I pat and shh, she stops crying. But then when I stops patting, she cries again. If I just leave, she would start to cry louder.
The second and third day she was doing well and took about 10-15 min to settle down.
Then from yesterday she started to cry much more, sometimes 20 min nonstop, but usually not the hysterical cry. Whenever I started to pick her up, she stopped crying immediately.

2. She always cries immediately after 4S wind down, do I stay and comfort her or leave a short period to let her try first?
3. Should I stay in the room and comfort her the whole time she was crying (not hysterical, just sometimes loud and sometimes soft, sometimes coughing type of cry)? Or should I leave and watch her on the monitor to see if she could calm down in a min or two?
4. After a few PU/PD, if I already walked to the door, and she started to cry again, do I do back immediately or just leave for a while?

5. For NWs or naps resettling, should I still do the same thing as before sleep or should I pat a bit more as it is more difficult to fall back to sleep after sleeping a while?

My observation is that if DD started to calm down after crying, she fell asleep very quickly, usually within 30 seconds, sometimes immediately. But the process of calming down is getting much longer since yesterday. I don't know whether I am doing PU/PD correctly. Please help. Thanks in advance.

[needasleepingangel]

About PU/PD, the real question for me is that I am not sure when I can leave the room.

Actually I don't mind patting her to sleep, but according to the history, every a few days, it became more difficult for me to help her sleep. If I was patting 2-3 min, then a few days later, maybe I need 5-10 min, then it became 20 min...

And she was having a lot of NWs right before I started PU/PD, which was the reason i started it.

[Erica_a80]

Unfortunately I haven't got any advice for you but I am having the same issue with my 8 month old. In fact I feel like I am now the prop to help him get to sleep as any time he wakes now he wants me there to help him.  I also am unsure when to leave so stay with him until he is in a deep sleep but I don't feel like it is teaching him to sleep independently of me.
So I just wanted you to know you aren't alone!

[needasleepingangel]

Thanks a lot, Erica. I did get some success with PU/PD, and she was able to put herself to sleep even though usually she has to cry a little while . But since she has been coughing for 3 days and with mucus in her throat, she is not sleeping well. And it is very hard even if I help her sleep. 
Not sure whether I should feed her more frequently or not. Kellymom website suggests more frequent feeding during colds and congestion.

[jessmum46]

Hi again, I've posted on your other thread and feel you may need to look at your routine a bit to see if that helps with settling.

Regarding your questions:
1 - do whatever you like in the sitting part of winddown - in fact, do whatever you like for winddown!  4S is a good way, but equally it's just way too much for some babies who get wound up by an such an extended process.  Mine literally liked up into room, into sleeping bag, lights off, quick cuddle/song and down - 2-3 mins tops.  I wouldn't even try to get mine drowsy - they went down fully awake into bed
2 - depends on type of cry.  If it's a fuss/protest/mantra by all means leave her to see if she can settle herself, but if it escalates into an 'i need you' then start using shh pat to try to settle her in the cot, and PUPD if it really escalates.
3 - stay in the room for now, she's working on settling without your help but probably going out will be a step too far at this stage.  You don't have to have hands on her all the time, but I would sit down in the room for now until she settles.
4 - as above, go back to her if she is crying an 'i need you'
5 - i would be as consistent as you can in your method of settling - the more practice she gets, the better.  That said, I do think PUPD is pretty stimulating for a mid-nap resettle - to be honest if she is *that* upset that she needs the PUPD rather than soothing in the cot it's probably not going to happen!  Give it 5-10 mins to try to get a resettle by calming in the cot, and then just get up and move on if it isn't happening

[needasleepingangel]

Thanks a lot, jessmum. It is very helpful.

I am still very frustrated with resettling her at night, because sometimes she would wake up and wouldn't resettle until 2.5 hours later, which is the length of her wake time. I am so afraid that she  would wake up at night, especially after she has slept for a few hours. Is it just developmental or maybe there is something going on with her but I missed it? Any thought?

[jessmum46]

Usually long wakings at night here have been related to either discomfort, or under tiredness - hopefully sorting the routine a bit will help x

[needasleepingangel]

Thanks, I will try to figure out what the reason is.

Sometimes what happened was if we were unable to respond to her quickly enough and if we didn't sooth her by patting or holding, just letting her try to fall asleep by herself, she would cry and wake up completely, and then it would be another 2-2.5 hours to fall asleep again. When I resettle her, I didn't pat her all the way until asleep because I am afraid if I did that, I will not be able to teach her independent sleep. She is now basically falling asleep by herself. But for connecting sleep cycles or awakened by noise, she still need help. Do you think it is fine that I pat her asleep when resettling her? Is it going to interfere with the process of teaching her IS? Many thanks. 

[jessmum46]

I think if she is falling asleep independently at the start of naps, then she will likely start sleeping through transitions herself provided there isn't another reason for her to wake.  My very independent sleepers still need help if they are woken unexpectedly, in pain, ill or overtired though so unless you are having to do it every single time then I would personally offer the help they need.

[needasleepingangel]

Oh, I can't take it anymore...

We have added solids for 3 days now. I don't know whether it is because of constipation or not, she has been sleeping really poorly these three days. I am so frustrated and desperate, and I almost want to try controlled crying. Please help me hang in there.

Doctor has checked her and she is not ill. But For no apparent reasons (other than OT and constipation), she just can't settle even at bedtime and before naps. For the last two days, she has been crying on and off for almost an hour before naps, and it happened again at bedtime tonight after grunting for 20 min, and then I went in as she became louder. But every time things becomes a mess after I went in.

Last night, she cried from 11pm-2am. 3 long hours. OMG, this is totally crazy. I fed her at 12am, but she still cried and wouldn't settle, and finally I fed her again at 2am, and she fell asleep.

I really don't know whether I should continue with PUPD, or maybe just give up, just rock her or whatever works. She just starts to cry really loud once I say I will put you down. And then I pick her up again, hold for a long time to calm her down, and try PD again, and she cries again, this just repeats itself... 3 hours is too long. She cried louder and louder and it became more difficult to sooth her.

And what's worse, I don't know where is the end. Every time it looks like things are getting better. Then suddenly it gets worse.

Tracy said: Start as you mean to go on. I really don't know how to go on. I don't want to give up because I know it means more crying in the future. But what should I do if she just cried and cried? I called my mom to come and help me and finally she rocked her to sleep tonight.

Because I can't help her fall asleep, I am frustrated, desperate and also angry. I don't know what to do. I cried and cried, and it is so hard to deal with my own postpartum depression and her crying at the same time.

Please help me...

[jessmum46]

So many (((hugs)))), it sounds to me like both of you need them right now

What support do you have in place for yourself?  I'm sorry you're dealing with PPD, sleep issues are tough enough at the best of times but I would suggest this really is a time for 'getting your own oxygen mask on first'.  Can you speak to a trusted friend, your doctor, your mum? 

Honestly, if it's all just too much right now do what works for sleep - don't stress about the sleep training.  That's something you can do later when you feel you have more strength and reserves in yourself. 

I don't want to suggest too much and overload you, but perhaps if the solids have led to worse sleep maybe hang fire on them a couple of days and then try again?  Not sure what you tried with her but maybe go for something simple like a veg purée? 

Did you have any success extending her wake times a bit?  As a guide a lot of 6-7 month olds will be approaching the 3h mark - if you're still significantly shorter she may settle a touch easier with longer awake?

Look after yourself

[needasleepingangel]

Thank you very much, Jessmum. It means a lot to me.

My husband is very supportive, and my mom can help me if I need her. I also talked to my doctor as well. I try very hard to stay calm (deep breath), which I know is important both for me and baby. but sometimes if she fights so hard and if I can't settle her after trying one hour, two hours, I will break down.

I really don't know whether it is OT or UT. Because yesterday she had 3 naps, 30 in carrier in doctor's office, 1hour15min, then 18min. The total daytime sleep was barely 2 hours. At bedtime, she wasn't fussy, and tried to settle by herself for almost 20min without crying. But I don't know why she didn't settle. Usually she would settle in 5-15min if she didn't cry. Then after that she was frustrated and started crying really hard...

For solid food, I just gave her a little bit of iron-enriched rice cereal to try. I added pumpkin puree on the fourth day (yesterday).

I am still trying to extend her wake time, but I also follow her lead. If she yawns or rubs her eyes, I will start winding down. This is another paradox. She may starts to yawn 2 hours after waking up, and after 5-15min winding down (depending on her mood), she may still fights another hour before she falls asleep. Then total wake time is over 3 hours. This is basically what happened in the past two days.

I started PUPD about 3 weeks ago, because she had so many irregular night wakings and also she didn't gain much weight in the past two months. We got huge success in the first two weeks, but in the past a few days, she just fights really hard. She is having growth spurt right now, and eat more frequently day and night. Cluster feeding doesn't work out. She still feels hungry. Therefore her EASY is a bit messed up, not longer 4 hour-EASY anymore. No idea what caused her to be so fussy.

Thanks again, for your help and support, Jessmum.

[jessmum46]

I'm glad you have such good support

This age is tricky with A times. Although you do right to follow her lead to an extent, many people find that they have to start keeping an eye on the clock more around now. I think what you are seeing at that 2h mark is more habit, boredom or just general tiredness, but 2h really is far too short an A time especially given how hard she is fighting every time. I do think she is telling you she isn't properly tired yet. It's super hard I know, we spend forever trying to avoid OT! But in my experience UT is far worse and leads to that really horrible fighting and then more exhaustion overall.

I would try as an absolute minimum not to even begin your wind down until 2h30 has passed.  If she's yawning earlier, change scene, take her outside, do a dance, whatever and you'll probably find she can push on rather longer than you expect. Honestly I do think it will help

To give you my experience, DD was quite a feisty character and if we went to her room even 10 mins too early she would fight tooth and nail and it was awful. If we pushed her to longer A times (often longer than average did her age) she would go down in less than 5 mins without a peep. Made that much difference!

Good luck x

[needasleepingangel]

Thank you sooo much, Jessmum.

Following your advice, I have successfully extend her A time to 3 hours. But she is still very very fussy and fights really hard these days. I think I found one possible reason--she is definitely teething now. She bit me really hard. Ouch! Any tips for help with sleep for teething baby?

She only got 2 half hour nap today, the first nap was 5 hours after WU. I am so tired. I ended up having to hold her asleep and then PD.

Just a general question on PU/PD:
1. very often when I say: I am going to pick you up, she would stop crying. In this case, do I still pick her up? (I always do).
2. after I pick her up, often she would stop crying instantly. But then if I say: I am putting you down, or she felt that I was lowering her, she would start crying hysterically. This is the part I get most frustration. According to Tracy, we put baby down immediately after she is calm. But this almost always irritates my DD. After a few rounds, both are exhausted. So what should I do in this case? Is there any trick on the PD part?

Thank you very much!!

[jessmum46]

For teething pain I used to give some pain relief 30 mins or so pre-nap (ibuprofen worked best for us).  Other things you can try are freezing a wet flannel and allowing LO to chew on it, teething gels/powders (lots available) and sometimes just rubbing their gums with your finger can give a bit of relief. 

Could you perhaps post a recent day or two if/when you get a chance?  Let's just see what the routine is looking like

I'm just wondering if you have quite a spirited baby there.....what do you think?  If so, it may be PUPD is not the best technique for her, and it also may mean she wants longer A times than average.  Just thinking that she calms to your voice....what if instead of actually picking up you try to calm in the cot using your voice instead?  Literally only picking up at all if she can't be calmed in any way in the cot. Maybe just sit with her and tell her to go to sleep?  Do you have a key phrase you use at sleep times?  I'm just thinking that if she calms quite quickly to your voice maybe what you are hearing is just a very loud angry protest rather than being really upset?  I'm not sure, I'm not there but what do you think?

Out of interest how is her mood on two short naps??