13MO NWs, night feeds, you name it!

[SusieQue]

Hi there again ladies. DS2 is now 13 months old and still not sleeping through - we are officially exhausted. He is an independent sleeper in that I always put him down for naps awake and he falls asleep on his own, at bedtime he has a bottle and is usually drowsy but awake when he goes to sleep. He has two bunnies that he sleeps with as his comforters. However, for the past few months he wakes up anywhere between 11 and 4, sometimes twice, and because we are so tired we give him a bottle and he goes back to sleep. A good night is bed at 6.30ish and wake up 4, bottle then back to sleep until 5.30.

Here is our last few days EASY

Tuesday (at nursery)
WU 5.45 (after bottle at 4)
E 7.30 breakfast
S 12.30-2.30
E dinner 5.00 (he's not a big eater)
S 9oz milk, asleep at 7
NW 11pm (bottle and asleep) and 3am (watered down bottle and asleep)

Wednesday
WU 5.30
E 7am breakfast
S 11-12.10 (he was at my mums and I told her to wake him after an hour in a hope of stopping the NW)
 E dinner 4.30
S 9oz bottle and asleep by 6.30

Thursday

WU 5.15 after NW at 4 (bottle then back to sleep)
E 6am breakfast
S 10-11 - we had to go out and he fell asleep in the pram)
BT 6pm

So last night we had NW at 1 and 3 - both times we have a bottle, the second one was very watered down. He woke again at 5 this morning.

I know we have to stop the bottles at night, but when we've tried before he just screams and points to the shelf where we normally put them in his room. And because he goes straight to sleep with a bottle, versus up to 2 hours previously trying to get him back to sleep without one, we do what we can to get some sleep.

I think he is quite low sleep needs, he never does more than 11 hours at night, and a few times in the past week I have let him sleep two hours in the day and he's been up more in the night. I just don't know where to start! I was thinking push his nap back to 12 and wake him at 1.30 maybe? He has two more bottom teeth that have popped up recently but he doesn't seem bothered by it - I just don't know what is causing th random wakings! I hope someone can help x

[Martini~]

Being honest Honey you just to stop giving bottles at night as this can be the only reason for waking at night. And how difficult it is I would say without it it's difficult to assess any other reasons as this one seems to be a major one. When you did two naps, how did he sleep during day and night? How long before bed you give the bottle? Is it separated by at least 30min from BT? At this age the rule awake but drowsy is often not enough.

[SusieQue]

Thanks Martini. I honestly can't remember what his sleep was like on 2 naps, I know we changed it because he was fighting naps and bedtime, and when we changed to 1 nap he was much better. We do give the bottle at bedtime, so he is usually pretty much asleep by the time we put him down. It's the same routine we had with DS1, but he was a textbook sleeper so we didn't have these kind of issues with him! I'm not sure about how long to let him nap in the day anymore, as I don't want his day sleep robbing his night, but then I do worry about OT as well - I'm a mess at the moment! I know you're right about dropping the bottles - I think we'll get Christmas over with and then give it a crack after the madness dies down!

[Martini~]

Asking about 2:1 transition as it indelicates somehow his sleep needs. I wouldn't cap the nap yet being honest before you are done with a bottle prop as some things may get improved. Other thing is that my son was also sleeping rather 11-11.5h nights but for me they were 12h as he settled 15-30min before bedtime and woke before 7am but I didn't need to come. So when you put him down really awake not drowsy/asleep you naturally will get additional 20/30min of him not sleeping but not needing you to stay with him. And he looks a bit tired being honest as he is asleep only 4-4.5h after a long nap when in the morning his A is much longer. With shorter nap he can become OT:/.

[SusieQue]

So we did manage to wean the night bottles over Christmas by offering water, then he would go back to sleep, but in the last few days we are back to bottles of milk! We offered him water the other night and he literally SCREAMED so loud that I rushed to get a bottle of milk, have it to him and he was straight to sleep. But he is still waking a couple of times at night and I just don't know what to do anymore! I heard someone suggest giving him his bedtime milk in a beaker instead of a bottle and was wondering what your thoughts would be in this? Yesterday he only napped for about 40 minutes all day from 11 to just before 12 (as we were out), so we went for 5.45 BT and he woke at 11.30(gave bottle and back to sleep) then 3am (again bottle and back to sleep) until 5.30am. He was so tired this morning I've stayed at home to let him catch up and he fell asleep at 10 and is still asleep now at 12.

I know he doesn't need the milk at night but he is just so loud when we don't offer it, and io by want him to wake DS1 (or the neighbours!) so we give him milk to get him back to sleep. Does anyone have any BTDT with stopping these night feeds? We are just so exhausted now I'm at the end of my tether - he hasn't slept through the night in over a year 😓. I should say that he is an independent sleeper for his naps and BT, he goes down for his nap no problem most of the time, although bedtime he has started wanting us there to rub his back

[Scottishmummy]

Unfortunately  there is no easy solution. As Marta advised before, you just stop offering milk.

You can do this all at once, just go cold turkey, or try doing it gradually if you are worried about noise, by slowly reducing amount of milk in each NF every 2-3 nights, until you get to a very small or no feed and just have to resettle another way if he still wakes.

How does he fall asleep at night- have you tried a comforter or lovey that could replace bottle & to encourage self soothing.

What's his daytime routine (sleep and meals) like? Just wondering whether he is waking did to OT/UT or learnt/actual hunger.

[SusieQue]

We hit a new low on Friday night when he woke at 11pm, 2 and then 4am when he was ready to get up for the day. I offered milk at 11 and he went back to sleep but didn't offer any at 2am when he woke - I just rubbed his back but was in there a good 30 minutes until he went back to sleep. Then he woke at 4am babbling and singing so I eventually got him up at 5am 😫. He had slept for 2 hours in the day, from 10.30 to 12.30, and we put him to bed at 6.15 where he was wide awake and chatting for about 5 minutes before he fell asleep.

So yesterday having been awake since 4am, I kept him awake until 11 when I put him to bed for his nap and he slept 1.5 hours. Then bedtime was 6.45 last night and out like a light. Then he woke at 1.50am chatting and babbling! We didn't give him milk but it took over 2 hours to settle him! Then he woke this morning at just before 7 (happy days!)

Are we putting him to bed too early at night?! He was up for 7 hours before his nap yesterday and you would never have known it, he just rubs his ear a little when he's tired. Does he need more day sleep, less, I iust can't figure the boy out! He is very talkative and obsessed with books, so maybe he just has an overactive brain (his brother was the same but he was a textbook baby).

He's not a big eater in the day, very fussy and does sometimes have literally a Greek yoghurt for dinner if he doesn't want what I've given him, but we offered him a bit of milk last night and he wasn't interested. He has two more bottoms teeth poking under his gums but these night wakings have been going on for months now and he doesn't sound in pain when he wakes. I just don't know what else to do anymore, I'm completely beaten 😞

[Scottishmummy]

He may not eat much in the day because he's taking milk at night. If you're cutting that out, you might see his appetite improve. But LOs are sometimes fussy eaters when teething do that might also be affecting him.

Regarding routine, could you post his typical day, or last few days of you get a lot of variation?

EW & NWs can be from early BT but can also be from OT. How long has he been on one nap? Just wondering if he might still need 2 naps, even if one os just a very short CN.

[SusieQue]

Thanks for the reply, here is his last few days:

Saturday
WU 4am, got him up at 5
S 11-1
E 1.15 had lunch
E 4.45 dinner (spag bol)
S 9oz milk then asleep at 6.45

NW 2-4am - didn't give milk but was 2 hours to get him to sleep - he woke up chatting

Sunday
WU 6.55am
E 7.15 ready brek
S 12-1.30pm had lunch before
E dinner 5pm
S 6.50 after 9oz milk - I had to go and run his back before he fell asleep

He's been on 1 nap for a couple of months as I have to pick DS1 up from school at 2.30 and he just wasn't having an afternoon catnap. I think he is low sleep needs anyway, and we are getting him tested for food intolerances to see if that makes a difference. Last night he slept through until 4am this morning when I gave him some water and back to sleep until 5.30. Still seems like quite a short night to me but I just can't tell any more! We were thinking of a later bedtime but DS1 is 5 and totally ready for bed by 7pm so I can't see him going to bed before his baby brother!

[Scottishmummy]

Personally I wouldn't push BT any later. The EW looks either like OT or some sort of discomfort (teeth or other), so a later BT would just make things worse, I think.

The EW could be adjustment to the 1 nap and also a bit of habit from having NFs.  With school pick up at 2.30 it would be hard to make a 2 nap routine work, so I think you might just have to push on with the 1 nap & not giving NFs.

Have you considered trying a set nap and BT? That can help adjust to one nap? You could try nap around 11.30/12 and still BT 6.45/7ish?  Set naps for toddlers: Why, How and When

[SusieQue]

Thank you, set naps is what I'm doing now and have been doing for a couple of days. I know it will take a while for him to adjust though. Yesterday he slept from 11.15-1.15pm for his nap, with bedtime at 6.50 but he took about 15 mins to fall asleep, he seemed really wired! Then he woke at 9.45 last night and I rubbed his back for a few minutes and he went back to sleep, then he woke again at 3.30am - I gave some water and he went to sleep until 5 when he wouldn't go back to sleep. I'm just going to persevere with the set naps and bedtime for a few more days and see if that helps. He is slowly killing us with sleep deprivation though!

[Scottishmummy]

It does sound like he's a little OT with 1 nap & a long day too which could be giving the "tired but wired" effect at BT and the NWs. Some people bridge this gap with a v short CN (10-15min) either around 9.30/9.45 ish (with long pm nap around 12.30/1) or around 4.30 ish (with long am nap around 11/12ish, often needs to be APOP-Ed) If 2 naps isn't an option though because of school pickup , could you try a slightly earlier BT? E.g around 6-6.30pm It sounds crazy but that sometimes gives you a longer better night and a later wake up. Even if you still got EW, it might establish an unbroken  11hr night (e.g. 6pm-5am) & then you could try shifting whole day forward like people do when clocks change. Even just by 15mins at a time every few days could also work.

[SusieQue]

That sounds like a good plan, thank you! Yesterday he slept at nursery from 11-12.30 and bed at 6.30 - again, he seemed quite wired enough we kept his pre-bedtime pretty low key as DS1 was out. We heard him cry out at 3am then he went back to sleep until 4, when we gave him water. He babbled and shouted for about 20 mins then went back to sleep until 5.30 when we got him up. We'll try the earlier bedtime tonight and see how we get on.

[Scottishmummy]

Good luck! Hope it works out for you xxx