7 month old night wakings, OT and more

[LizzieZombieMummy]

Hi

This is my first post and it’s going to be a very long one but thought I’ll try and get as much info down at once... My 7 month old daughter from a young age was able to sleep long stretches at night. At around 5.5 months she was going from 7pm to around 4am BF and back to sleep to 6.30am ish, sometimes slept right through. Then, she suddenly refused her afternoon nap. I was not prepared for this! On some days I was able to get her to have a catnap in the buggy but now she won’t even do that. Not in the car, sling, nowhere will she sleep in the afternoon. At around the same time, I started introducing formula, then we started weaning. Until weaning she was on a 3.5 EASY. Since then her night sleep has got worse and worse. She is a very happy, smiley, busy, big and healthy baby but has become so overtired. She used to be so easy to read, but I have lost all confidence and I don’t know how to get out of this situation.

FYI
-She is a thumb sucker
-We are restricted napwise to the first nap being after 9.10am and the second finishing by 3.00pm due to the school run for my older son.
-When she’s well rested she can do 3 hour A times no problem.
-She settles for her naps and bedtime with no assistance unless very worked up.
-I rarely get a nap longer than 1hr 20. Sometimes 1hr40 in the morning.
-I have reduced her solid food a lot compared to last week. She can eat a lot. But has been constipated and windy and also not taking so much milk at bedtime so thought we’d reduce the quantity and drop tea time for a while.
-We have never done a dreamfeed.

This was yesterdays EASY including the previous night, then last night and today so far:
7.00pm BT
11.30pm AE BF
12.00 S
2.30am A Tried to settle in cot. This never works. Picked up. Did a modified ShushPat, once calm she puts in her thumb and I slowly put her in the cot. Nearly settled. Fed (don’t think she was hungry) didn’t work. Did ShushPat again. She seems asleep and will suddenly turn/move and starts crying again. Sometimes is proper, sometimes is mantra crying.
4.00am S
6.15am A I gave her a pacifier to keep her quiet. I only do this occasionally.
6.40 E BF
6.50    She fell asleep feeding
7.10 A
8.00    Solids pear and apricot
9.15 S   1hr 10mins    Typically 1hr20. I have been giving cereal at breakfast but didn't today. I think she was hungry on waking?
10.35 A
11.00 E FF/BF
12.15   Solids Sweet potato
1.35 S 35mins! This is new. It happened the previous day and I could not resettle her.
2.10 A      Did shushpat and she slept a few more mins.
2.50 AE BF
6.00 E FF/BF
6.20 BT This is the earliest bedtime we have done.
10.30pm AE BF
10.50 S
12.30 A Tried to settle, was nearly asleep, I heard her tummy rumble. Started crying. I fed her and settled ok again. My milk supply is pretty low at night now, I think because for quite a while I wasn’t feeding her at night. Maybe I am not able to give her a good night feed anymore. Got a bottle ready.
1.00 S
1.40 AE FF
2.00am S

Today
5.30 A
5.45 E BF Again not much milk there I don’t think. Wouldn’t go back to sleep. This is too early to get up IMO so I used the pacifier again. She slept in my arms to
6.45 E BF
8.15    Solid Pear and Millet porridge
9.30 S 50mins
10.20 A hungry?
10.45 E FF
12.15   Solid pea and sweet potato
1.10 S


This is my planned EASY. I would prefer 7-7 day but will go with earlier for now.

6.30 A
9.30 S
10.30 A
1.30 S
3.00A It’s rare to get longer than an hour for this nap though
6.30 BT

Does this look ok? She is more likely to do the longer nap in the morning but think it would be restorative to have the longer in the pm if possible.

So a long list of questions:
-What I do about the very recent short naps? We battled 40 min naps for a long time but I thought it was sorted. Bring them earlier? And how do I get back on track for daytime. Is there a magic way I could get a 2 hour nap?
-Any ideas about the long A time in the afternoon?
-I am feeding and changing her nappy on the first waking straight away as it’s about 4 hours from BT feed. Is it possible she is very hungry then, even though she never used to be and I don’t have enough milk? If so I should try a bottle then. She usually (but not always) feeds to sleep and settles no problem. Should I somehow keep her from falling asleep so I can put back in bed awake and she falls asleep independently?
-If she isn’t hungry what do I do in the night to get her settled more quickly or not waking at all? I genuinely cannot face pupd. My back and shoulders hurt now and her crying already disturbs my son and the neighbours. I always end up trying to feeding her, is this bad!?
-Is giving a pacifier at an EW going to cause a problem that she will wake expecting it? She seems to take it no problem and I have considered using it at night.
-Approximately what age can they handle a 4 hour A time?
- I been trying for about 2 months to introduce a lovey. Keep it next to me while feeding and at quiet, wind down times. I put it in the cot and she plays with it and throws it around! Any ideas?

I am sorry there is so much info and questions. Thank you to anyone who takes a look at this. Any thoughts would be very welcome.

Tired tired Lizzie
 

[FPT23]

Hi and welcome to BWF!!

I'm happy to offer some humble advice and suggestions to help some. Hopefully other mommies can jump on and help too!

First off, many hugs bc this sounds rough! hopefully I can be of some bit of help... I will try to address as much as I can

I'm having a hard time figuring out what you would like help with. You mentioned NWs but for majority of the text it's mostly a concern w naps? We do have a naps board where you can get better eyes to help and guide you more in that area! More eyes for nap unsettleness!

IRT to your hunger questions-- I really can't tell you if she's hungry or not tbh. I BF as well and found lots of changes around this time with naps changing from 3-2 and lengthening as well... my supply starting going down some due to the longer A times and naps. I would just make sure she is having enough during the day. There is a breast feeding place as well. There is a lot of help and support there! I do see your weaning-- did you finish weaning or how is that working? ...is the new formula upsetting her by chance? Wind, cinatupation etc? This too is a rough age bc of solids as you mentioned so I would suggest balancing her solids and maybe an earlier dinner so it's not too close to BT upsetting her tummy...? By balance I mean, be careful with the ABC solids- apples bananas carrots as they cause the most constipation. Hopefully some of these tips help but ultimately you know her best and when.

That NW she has, the first one... if she used to sleep through it and suddenly wakes now, I would think it to be hunger. BUT as an exclusive BF baby, night feeds are still very common at this age. I think you may want to decide if your fully weaning or just BF. Doing both becomes a challenge bc you will end up losing supply. Consult perhaps a lactation consultant?

As far as what to do during the NW... you mentioned she's slept independently before right? During these NWs there are a few things to consider before you try sleep training when she's already slept right through before

Teething/pain/discomfort: as I mentioned above, solids are introduced so this can cause some tummy troubles. So try and tweak the solids and make sure she's not constupated or gassy. Teething begins around this time if she hasn't already had her first tooth. Try teething meds to ease the pain if you find this could be the culprit

New found mobility! ....crawling? Rolling? Sitting in som cases! Sometimes all this can cause disruption and you have to kind of go with the flow and know that it will pass. Give any new mobility plenty of practice during the day

Growth spurts: your say ur LO is 7 months but around 6 mths there may have been a GS. Always make sure she's fed and content during her day so she's not making up for it at night

.....I want to add that your ideal EASY is good to aim for. It would be easier if u can jot ur easy a bit in the formal manner:

E 7:00am
A
S 10-11:30 ...for example. It was a tad bit hard to follow I apologize! I think you need more consistency and also find out what's going on with the BF and FF area. Make sure she's getting enough to eat and it genuinely isn't hunger. You know baby best

The paci is also one of those things that's really up to the parent. If it hasn't been something she hasn't depended on, I wouldn't worry too much if it's not creating habit. Again, I won't go against pacis as they are a great tool, and I also won't suggest starting the habit. I think that's more of a personal preference for a parent and how much your willing to use it for.

As far as a lovey- I think it's too soon for her still to get attached to one lovey. I think I heard or read somewhere around that closer to 10+ mths they form an attachment to a stuffed animal or blanket kinda thing. Not too sure on that one hun, sorry! Maybe she will soon!

Hope this helps and many hugs xo!

[LizzieZombieMummy]

Hi

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond . I'm not surprised you couldn't follow it all, I think I was trying to give as much info as possible and trying to untangle it in my own mind!

I'll keep this to NW and post on other boards as well.

So, I'm pretty sure the NW is hunger. She wakes around 4 hours after her BT feed. If I try only feeding her a little she keeps waking so, I put the nightlight on to try and stop both of us going back to sleep too quickly and get as much in her as possible. I wondered if you have thoughts on whether it's a problem that she feeds to sleep? I don't think it is but don't want to cause future issues. Then, she wakes around 5.30. I feed her then but it's really hard to get her back to sleep.

I have tried teething meds with no luck and she shows no other symptoms.

Anyway thank you again.

[FPT23]

Your very welcome!

Haha yes it was a ton of stuff all at once but I tried to cover it no worries! I get it

It sounded like hunger since you were jumping back and forth w BF and FF... I've been there. I know how it goes. That's why I think at this point (as hard as it is and sad for us haha) you should just go to FF UNLESS you start pumping and bring back your supply tremendously. When you offer formula, your supply will drop. No matter what. I wouldn't rely on BFing at this point unless you know your full but it seems like you were very doubtful of supply. Nothing wrong w formula- all babies grow to read and write.. formula or breastfed ...your wonderful for supplying her this long. Hugs.

When u say ur feeding at night, is it formula? I also would not turn on lights of any kind, or change diapers at night either. Unless it's poo but babies are meant to sleep 12hrs straight and are perfectly well in their diapers. I think that can cause more sleep disturbance and way harder to get back to sleep at night.

Now, that 5am wake... its hard to get her back down bc she's been rested all night. The AWFUL thing about EWs is that at that hour they are into "light" sleep. They aren't in deep sleep as they are the rest of the night, KWIM?? But EWs can be for a number of reasons... OT, UT (weird I know but I think more OT in your case maybe...), discomfort, or outside noise (garbageman, cars, sunrise lighting)...

For the next few days.. write ur easy for me in easy format

E 7am
A
S 10am - 11:30am

E 11:30
A
S 2:30-3:30

BT asleep by 7

Get me? Any extra you can just explain and write it. Asleep means they are asleep BY 7pm etc. not the time you put her down at, but the time she is asleep. You can add NWs there too- just times

NW: 2am-3am etc etc

EW: 5am 

Yes feeding to sleep is a prop. Has she ever slept independently? Or has she always been fed/nursed to sleep.

Xo

[LizzieZombieMummy]

Hello there

Thanks again.

I was just about to write on the naps board as were having a very unpredictable time during the day now as well.

Today

E 5.30
S 6.15
A 6.50   
S 9.30 – 10.40
E 11.00
S 1.40 – 2.25
A
E 3.00
A
E 6.10
S 7.10

I don’t think I made it clear, she usually goes to sleep independently for naps and at BT unless very OT and worked up like today. I used the paci again this morning to get her back to sleep after feeding. At bedtime this evening she couldn’t settle, which is unusual. Shushpat didn’t work, but usually does. So I fed her to sleep. In the night, I can’t imagine how I would not feed her back to sleep in the night if she needs a feed. Also she doesn’t take enough milk to keep her going if I don’t wake her up a bit changing her nappy, tickling etc, she is too sleepy. I don’t do this at an EW though.

I have been writing it down the last few days as well:

Yesterday

A 6.20
E 6.30
S 9.25 – 10.50
E 11.00
S 2.15-2.40
E 3.00
A
E 6.00
S 6.15
NW 8.05 settled with shushpat
NW 11.15 E fed both sides

Friday

A 5.30
E 5.45
S 6.00
A 6.45
S 9.30 – 10.20
A
E 11.00
S 1.10-2.30
A
E 3.00
E 6.00
S 6.15
NW 7.00 settled with shushpat
NW 8.00 ditto
NW 1.00 E fed both sides

Thursday

A 6.15 happy
E 6.40
S 6.50-7.05
A
S 9.15-10.35
E 11.10
S 1.35-2.10
E 2.50
E 6.00
S 6.20
NW 10.30

The short nap happed the day before as well, I did settle her with shushpat but she only slept a few minutes more. At the NW I tried to settle without feeding properly and realised she wasn’t settling because she was hungry.

I’m sure the late stretch in the afternoon is not helping, but her morning naps have got shorter so the afternoon nap is earlier and sometimes crazy short. Oh no, I don’t want to give up BF. I didn’t realise you can’t combine the both. Currently the late morning and BT feeds I am giving formula, but I always offer her BF when the she finishes with the FF which she always takes for at least a minute or two. When the naps and night sleep were going well, I was planning to start work again, so started the formula for someone else to give her. So far she won’t take a bottle in the night, just fights it. Also a bottle is so much hassle to prepare in the night/early morning. I have started pumping to try and increase supply but pretty sure I can’t do it enough to go back to BF full time.

Hope this is clearer this time! 

[FPT23]

Hi thank u

Hmmm I would think she's OT... especially bc of those short naps and you are certain she's not in discomfort... (how long have u had her on formula. U suuuure this new formula isn't causing reflux, gas, constipation, tummy pains etc?)..

I think she's OT because after a short nap-- you have her staying up a long A time. It makes sense that if the naps are short, her next AT should be shortened a tad too as well, don't u think?  Also keep in mind not all AT will be the same. Some prefer long mornings shorter afternoons or vice Versa... how is her mood when she wakes from her naps in the morning-- shorter than 1.5 hrs. Usually 1.5 is considered a good nap.

I feel tweaking the routine may help the NWs but always bare in mind the other options I mentioned above the other day

[LizzieZombieMummy]

Hiya

No I'm not 100% sure she's not in discomfort, but no constipation since I reduced the solids, no reflux, or much noticeable gas. I started the formula about 6 weeks ago but the disruption in nights and naps has been more recent. Last night was better. I had to settle her early evening, gave a feed around 11.30 and then she slept until 6.45am.

Today was okish although her A times were longer than planned due to some disruptions and she took a while to get to sleep. Not crying though. I have just had to settle her though she settled well at BT.

A 6.45
E 7.00
A
S 9.50-10.45
E 11.00
A
S 2.00 to 2.50
E 2.50
A
E 6.25
S 6.50
NW 8.50
Unless it's a very short sleep, generally she has a bit of a shout on waking from a nap, then is happy. But she is a happy happy baby.
 

[FPT23]

I would consider pushing A times a bit more....

If she's waking and being such a happy baby--- I gotta say she might just be a high sleep needs baby! Even though the average AT is about average- perhaps she needs a tad more. I would increase. Especially since from what your saying, she is seemingly very happy and content

That scream you mentioned upon waking might just be that she's tired BUT not tired ENOUGH to continue sleeping longer. When I had some wakes shortly after BT it was always an indication of UT for us. Pushing for the next week fixed it ...again, every baby is diff but why don't you give that a try?

Depending on how you feel or how well your LO handles AT which seems like she handles it well being so happy ....you can move her AT all at once to just kick start a suitable routine... maybe up her to 3hr 15 mins all day.. or you can start with only her morning AT and the rest remain the same. Try this for 2-3 days.... if naps still don't lengthen, try 3.30.

Worth a shot give it enough time and consistency for you to see if it works.

Xoxo!

[*Ali*]

Hi and welcome.

I've not done it myself but lots of mums successfully mix feed with both breastmilk and formula. We have a FAQ I'd recommend you read on the topic A bottle (or more!) a day…  Mixed breast and bottle feeding

There is no need to give up either if wish to continue with both. I think the key is to stick to a regular pattern so that your body knows when milk is needed and when it isn't.  Personally, since you are worried about supply, I would switch the order you offer the feeds and offer the breast first so your body gets max stimulation to produce milk and she only takes the amount of extra formula that she needs. I would also consider using paced feeding as it mimics breastfeeding more closely.
http://www.mamanatural.com/paced-bottle-feeding/

At this age I'd assume all the NWs you're getting are hunger and I'd offer the breast. It's completely normal for breasts to not feel full at this stage. Your supply is now controlled by demand as she feeds rather than by hormones and stored in advance like it was in the early days and weeks. I'll link a FAQ about low supply for you. Many women think they have supply issues when they really don't. The FAQ will help you work out which is the case for you. I'm worried I may have low milk supply

I wonder if your LO is getting hungry and that's what's making her short nap in the mornings.  I notice she's often going over 5hrs between the morning feed at 5.30/6am and the next feed around 11am. If she goes back to sleep after that 5.30 feed I would offer again shortly after she wakes up around 7am. Even if she only takes a top up it should help her through until after a better nap. TBH, research on breastfeeding has moved on significantly since the BW books were written and it is now generally accepted that most breastfed babies will eat more frequently and need more BFs than the 4 daytime feeds a 4hr EASY suggests. Many of us did/do top up feeds so it's more like EAEAS. Breast milk is digested within 2hrs and is more nutritious than any solid food she will be taking at this age. So you don't want solids displacing breastmilk just yet. Milk (breast or formula) should be her main source of nutrition for at least the first year. The WHO and NHS (UK) recommend BF until 2yo and beyond as long as baby and mother wish. If you are happy to continue then it's the best milk you can offer your baby.

Is the constipation sorted now? She's passing a soft stool every day? Formula can be very constipating,  especially for a baby who's used to BF.  Her sleep will be disturbed if she's in pain. Breastmilk is a natural laxative so extra breastfeeds will help.

Oh and I wouldn't worry about feeding to sleep in the night. Your milk is full of sleep hormones designed to get you and baby back off to sleep ASAP! ☺

[LizzieZombieMummy]

Hi and thank you both for your thoughts.

Ali, that's really useful and reassuring. Can I just check if it's usual for LOs to start waking hungry in the night when previously had been able to go longer stretches? I fed her about half an hour before her morning nap and she slept an hour and 20 mins until I woke her because we had to go out! Also I'm not able to pump much and I know this isn't an indicator of supply. I only have a little hand pump and am undecided whether to get an electric one. Oh and btw yes we get one soft poo a day at the moment.

FPT
I think you could be right about AT I'm trying to work out how to get the naps and AT in between the school runs. I wonder about letting her have a short first nap then pushing the middle AT for a longer second nap. Also slightly in denial about less Y time and the drop to one nap being not too far away! 

Any ideas about the evening wakings?

Thanks a lot!!

[LizzieZombieMummy]

Hi again

It seems she is a hungry baby. She wouldn't settle for her second nap todsy at all until I fed her. So I'm going to work out if I can fit in 5 feeds with longer AT... Not sure how this adjusts again as we increase solids. Also she is often very busy and distracted at her middle of the day feeds, even if I feed in semi darkness. Would she actually not be taking in enough at these feeds leaving herself hungry?

Sorry for all the questions!

[FPT23]

Hi!

I'm glad pushing AT is useful for you. Good luck! Patience, time and consistency with that and in time she will adjust.

I totally get the school run issues. That was our problem too and I had to wake for the second nap or just leave DS2 with a bit of a stretch of AT and have his nap after school run. I tried to keep him from napping in the car by having his brother make him laugh, give him a toy, or lower the windows a tad. To avoid those 10 min CNs ....your LO will grow and with growth comes AT pushes. Soon she will fit into those runs- before you know it

Yes I had mentioned above previously that I felt this was probably a hunger issue, remember ! I went through the same thing with BF/FF. I mentioned to you, to make sure she is getting enough especially when doing both as there can be a drop in supply when offering formula-- I suggested some pump sessions to keep up ample supply I would consider an electric pump! You may not even need to pump as often as you think since your doing both. Perhaps figure out a good routine in which you will be BFing and get in extra pumps and the other times for FF. Your body is amazing and will adjust to when you need. Sometimes as little as 10-15 mins works! I also mentioned speaking with a lactation consultant as well for additional help. They are amazing help ! May I suggest going into our link for breastfeeding and solids. You may find additional support and extra eyes on this topic. You may also read along some threads similar to yours to help you get an idea of how other moms work their routines and nursing sessions with solids etc. Start a new topic and ask away for solid or BF routines. Bare in mind as well that adding solids into the mix can also add to her fullness while BFing. Lots of changes around this time! So just always make sure she's getting sufficient calories/feeds in her day ...and yes! Distraction can definitely cause her to not eat as efficiently- most definitely! Happens often ...I saw you mention one soft poo a day... how is her weight? One soft poo a day seems a bit on the low side... I mean I could be wrong- just my humble opinion. How have her stools been before you introduced formula. Once a day as well? More? Less?

Here is a link with FAQ-- on here there are SEVERAL topics you can pick and choose from to read on! Check it out

FAQ's - Frequently Asked Questions & Related Information - Breast

Here is the link for "Breastfeeding" so feel free to add your own input to help you!

Breast Feeding

[*Ali*]

Yes it's very common for LOs to go through periods of sleeping well at night and then waking more frequently as they go through growth spurts and developmental leaps.

[LizzieZombieMummy]

Hi

Just wanted to touch base and says thanks for your input. I've managed to get my supply up so have had a few days with no formula. I do want to introduce it again though as I need to go back to work in a couple or months so going to do it slowly so her digestion can adjust and with a view to stopping BF if she takes it well. I want to keep the NW as BF though - it's easier, so may keep pumping to ensure I have the supply. As she's still waking for a feed I can know it's not the formula upsetting her tummy.

We've had a couple of nights sleeping through, but mostly waking for a feed and also wind which is new. She's really teething the last few days so assume it's all part of it.

I can really push her AT times to 3.5 hours as well. I'm finding it hard to get a nice daily routine though. I think you're right about not being a high sleep needs baby, I can't believe I'm thinking about her dropping to one nap already!!

Anyway just wanted to say thanks for your suggestions and encouragement.
Lizzie x

[FPT23]

Your very welcome and I hope everything works out wonderfull

You'll settle into a lovely routine before you know it but I'm glad with the few suggestions, she's started to sleep more through

Many hugs xo