Catnaps and EASY4

[Bori21]

Hi there,

My LO is 3m5d boy who has taken catnaps all day since week 7. I was adviced to change his EASY3 to EASY4 at week8 and he did take 1,5-2h naps in exactly that one day. Then, catnaps again. I assummed this result was all my fault as I wasnt stick to EASY4 waketime. I let him go to sleep right when he gives cues (yawning, rubbing his eyes,...) which is only 1-1,25h after he wakes from the previous sleeping (EASY4 requires 2h of waking). And now I'm working on extending his waketime and it's almost there except for one problem: the 3rd nap. If I let him take 30-45' nap, he will be so tired and cant go to sleep at night until 10pm. But if I let him sleep 30' more (with my assisstance of course), he can go to sleep at 8pm easily. So I wonder is it ok  to fix his catnaps by maintaining his recent schedule rather than observing EASY as the total waketime during the day is still enough?
For more info, here is his typical schedule:
7am: wake and feed
7h30-8h45: activity
8h50-11h: sleep
11am: feed
11h30-12h45: activity
12h50-15h: sleep
15h: feed
15h30-16h50: activity
17h-18h30: sleep
19h: feed
19h30-20h: activity
20h: sleep
22h: feed

Ah another problem is that he takes short sleep until 22h. After 22h he actually sleeps and wakes once at around 2-3am to feed.
To keep him sleep in his naptime, I have to resettle and sometimes hold him till the time ends. I know that I should do some sleep training but I really want to change his catnapping habits first by hoping after experiencing EASY4, it'll be easier to put him go to sleep. Otherwise, I'm afraid that he would be so tired day by day as he doesnt sleep enough.

I also wanna ask about PU/PD method to extend naps. I read this topic: 10 Reasons You Cannot Use Pu/Pd and wonder the 6th reason, it means that if the baby is happy and doesnt cry after waking up after 30-45' nap, PUPD doesnt have effect?

Thanks alot and pls spare my English 

[jessmum46]

Hi, your English is great

Then, catnaps again. I assummed this result was all my fault

Not at all!  Catnaps are so so common in babies under 6 months, partly due to development and partly due to awake times being too long or too short.  A 4h EASY/2h wake times would be a big stretch for an 8 week old so it may have been over tiredness that led to the catnaps - most babies won't handle 2h awake time until about 4 months of age.

I let him go to sleep right when he gives cues (yawning, rubbing his eyes,...) which is only 1-1,25h after he wakes from the previous sleeping

At 3.5 months I'd expect him to be able to handle around 1h30-45 mins of wake time - after a good night or good nap.  It may be slightly shorter after a short nap or a bad night.  He may also show tiredness signs if he has a build-up of tiredness over a number of days from short naps.  Sometimes you need a combination of following cues but keeping one eye on the clock - so tired signs at 1h I would probably ignore and change scene/activity instead, but tired signs from around 1h30 are probably genuine and I'd try settling for a sleep.

one problem: the 3rd nap. If I let him take 30-45' nap, he will be so tired and cant go to sleep at night until 10pm. But if I let him sleep 30' more (with my assisstance of course), he can go to sleep at 8pm easily.

This is fine!  It is so important to remember EASY is not a schedule, it is a pattern of eat, sleep, activity but the times will vary according to your baby.  There is a period of transition between a 3h EASY and 4h EASY - if he can handle about 1h45 activity then he will likely need 3 'proper' naps rather than 2 long naps and a catnap until he can manage slightly longer awake.

The schedule you posted - his naps look really good on there! Is he actually sleeping the whole time?  I can't quite see the catnaps If what you posted is an ideal day, could you post what happens on a real day instead?

I know that I should do some sleep training but I really want to change his catnapping habits first

Without seeing your real routine it is hard for me to comment on this, but reliance on props/lack of independent sleep skills can actually cause short naps.  I'd suggest starting to work towards independent sleep sooner rather than later

I also wanna ask about PU/PD method to extend naps. I read this topic: 10 Reasons You Cannot Use Pu/Pd and wonder the 6th reason, it means that if the baby is happy and doesnt cry after waking up after 30-45' nap, PUPD doesnt have effect?

If baby has had enough sleep after 45 mins (often happens because they were undertired going down for the nap - the A time was too short) then no amount of PUPD will put them back to sleep - they're not tired!  PUPD is not magic, it's a tool for teaching independent sleep but has to be combined with an age-appropriate routine.

Hope that's helpful!

[creations]

Hi there Bori

The above routine is fine if you are getting those lengths of naps.  For the guidance times by age he is having quite a long A time but some LOs do better on longer so if you have already discovered these times work well for him then keep going   We always adapt EASY to individual LOs as every baby is different.

The above routine, we would usually call a 4hr EASY, not because LO needs to stay awake for 2hrs but because the E comes every 4hrs rather than every 3hrs.  If your LO is okay to feed every 4hrs that is totally fine.

I'm not sure I would suggest trying to extend his A time any further at this point if he is doing those good naps.  If he is doing well on this routine I would just hold it there until such time it shows that a change is needed.

The third nap - I think you are saying he needs a long nap - this is totally fine   It looks like it works well and give him enough sleep to get to BT at 8pm if I have read your routine correctly.

Ah another problem is that he takes short sleep until 22h.

I'm not sure what you mean here. After BT at 8pm is he waking up a lot for the first couple of hours?  This might be due to a bit of OT but if the waking is not too bad I wouldn't worry about it too much.

I also wanna ask about PU/PD method to extend naps

PUPD is not going to help in any way if your baby is waking after a short nap and is happy or only lightly fussing. It is also not intended for babies this young. Even Tracy did not use PUPD under 4 months and said it was a last resort method. On the forums we generally do not advise using it even as early as 4 months, really it is intended for older babies.
I recommend looking at sleep training using shush/pat and to extend naps with the help of W2S as you did on your previous thread.
It is often possible to adapt the shush/pat if you have another method of support which helps your LO, such as gentle rocking, a firm hand or stroking the head or back rather than patting.  If you'd like advice on this we could perhaps offer some.  I used an adapted shush/pat with my LO as patting seemed to make his reflux a bit worse.

Your English is great by the way

Posted the same time as jessmum. xx
Sorry I see we have been a little contradictory on the A time.  Katherine I think LO is 3 months 5 days rather than 3.5 months. So I have take an average guidance time of 1hr 20 to 1hr 30 at 3 months and see in the routine more like 1hr 50.
I hope this explains why we have said slightly different things Bori.  We can clarify if needed.

[jessmum46]

Ah yes, apologies, I read it as 3.5months . Creations is right 1h20-30 is an average at 3 months, with the 1h45-2h average coming around 4 months x

[Bori21]

Thanks you guys alot 

The schedule I posted was his real schedule but in naptime, its not like he sleeps traight through the time. He takes only 30-40' sleep first, then right when he pops his eyes, I carry him and pat till he does another new sleep cycle. As a result, he takes 2-3 of 30-40' sleep in his naptime with my assisstance. And it happens until 22h.

This morning, I tried W2S again, by tickling his back till he stirred but nothing changed, 30' nap again =.= I'm now quite desperate you know ) so pls help me with this.

Ah and I have one more question. My LO doesnt eat well these days. At E1 and E3, he just eat a little then if I keep putting my breast into his mouth, he will be fussy. I wonder if it relates to the nighttime meal at 2-3am which means I have to cut his nighttime eating? OMG, if its true, there's alot of things I have to handle at the same time (

[creations]

Waking at the sleep cycle transition and being unable to go back to sleep on his own is likely linked to not yet being an independent sleeper. When LO can self settle for naps they are more likely to self settle mid-nap too.  The sleep training is something you need to be ready for and commit to.  It is possible to sleep train for one nap per day (same nap each day, not switching from nap 1 to nap 2) as habits seem to build per-nap.  This way may be easier on you but will take longer overall.  Tackling sleep training for all naps and BT is quicker overall but it can be hard work and time consuming.

With W2S, I think you need to try the naps option 1 which I mentioned in your other thread. If you are walking and patting him in arms you can try using two hands in the cot, one to slightly rock with a firm hand to simulate the walking and the other doing the patting.  The idea is to see him through the transition all the way to the next cycle where as the other method (method 2) is where you slightly disturb LO by a stroke or touch.  This doesn't seem to help with your Lo as he is unable to self settle so once you rouse him he just wakes fully.

The night feeds, there are just two I think, one at 10pm and one at 2-3am, this is totally normal for a BF baby to need both these feeds. I wouldn't wean either yet.  The day time feeds might be short because he is becoming more efficient at feeding, taking less time but getting what he needs. I am not great with BF advice to be honest but so long as he is gaining weight and making wet nappies I think there is not likely a problem. If he is distracted during feeding you can try a calmer room for feed times.

[Bori21]

It's me, again  but this time, I dont come to complain or ask for an advice but to show off hahaha

I did sleep trainning almost 3 weeks ago, and now my LO can sleep quite well at night, from 8pm to 7h30am, awake once at 1am to feed. The only problem is that around 5-6am, he moves/stirs so much, like we do when we lie on bed for hours but cant sleep About naps, he still cant make the transition well, but with my assistance, he can sleep 1h30-2h30' ON BED! Sometimes he wakes and cant go back to sleep, but thats ok, the total result is so muchhhhh better!!

I just wanna say thanks to all of you guys. You are so kind and enthusiastic for responding every question of mine. And I wanna thank Tracy Hogg too. All of her methods are effective!

Once again, thank you thank you thank you

[jessmum46]

That is brilliant

[creations]

What a lovely update.
Thank you for taking the time to post your good news 

[Bori21]

It's kind of ashamed to be here once again to complain about my boy's sleeping. But I'm really annoyed right now.

He's now 5 months old.  Recently, I've extended his A time as he gets 1 more month old now (from 1,75-2h to 2-2,5h) and it was hard for him to get into sleep with the old A time. Here is his schedule

7h-7h30: wake and eat
7h30-9h: A time
9h-10h30: nap
10h30-11h: wake and eat
11h-13h: A time
13h-15h: nap
15h-17h15: A time
17h15-17h45: nap
17h45-19h: A time
19h: eat

And here is the prob, it is used to take about 30' for him to sleep at night  but now, it seems like he cant calm himself. Until 9pm, even 9.30 pm, he cant settle up to sleep. And I have to carry him and pat, sometimes walk a little bit for him to close his eyes and then put him down immediately. But he will wakes after a sleep cycle and cry. I have to pat to calm him again. Then around 4 to 6am, he stirs like crazy and semi awake, I mean he cant sleep tight in the early morning. I dont know what's wrong with his schedule or he is just so bad at self settling? He's teething. Does it effect his sleeping that much? Omg I feel so desperated. I've tried so hard to teach him how to sleep and tasted the victory for only one month and now this happens!!!

One more clue, in nap time, its not like he sleep traight through the time, he catnaps and semi awake but then immediately closes his eyes and sleeps, but sometimes he doesnt sleep tight as well (doesnt take another sleep cycle), its like a chain of REM sleepings 

[jessmum46]

(((Hugs))), I know it's frustrating but I can tell you that baby sleep most definitely is not a one-way street!  There are always ups and downs, regressions, changes in routine - so nothing has gone 'wrong' per se, you just need to find the new normal

Sounds to me like it could be a combination of teeth (yes, they really can mess up sleep badly for some) and perhaps needing to start to move to 2 naps?  I think the catnap may be stopping him settle properly.  Could you cut it to 15-20 mins or even eliminate it entirely and see if that helps?

[Bori21]

Yes I've been trying to cut off his 3rd nap for 4 days. I'm not sure it works totally but maybe there is some progression. At least its easier for him to start sleeping (but he still stirs and sometimes wakes at around 4-5 am then catnaps =.= I've tried w2l but it doesnt work). Hope that once he get used to this new schedule, he will sleep better.

Thank you so much

[jessmum46]

Hang in there, transitions are always tough but it will come right in the end (until the 2-1...!)