7 month old bedtime battles

[sparklewings1984]

I'm back.... 2 years ago I found so much help on this board with DS1 and I need a refresher course for DS2 now it seems!!!

He's 7 months and 1 week and only been napping well for he last 3 or 4 weeks. Previously he would only sleep on me or in the car during the day but we're now on the following rough timings:

WU 7.30am & breastfeed
E 8.30am fruit & cereal
S 10.15/10.30am - 11.45am
E 12pm meat, veggies and fruit pudding
S 2.30- 4pm
E 4.30pm veggies, fruit pudding
S .... Usually attempt bath 6.30 or 6.45pm but can take until 9pm for him to sleep!

Nap time routine seems to work fine, I know we shouldn't, but he usually breastfeeds to sleep, I then carry him upright to burp him and lay him in his cot. He's usually 100% asleep, or if he wakes slightly he goes straight back off no problem. Usually wakes up happy and chattering to himself. Bedtime is another matter...

I've been starting bathtime about 2hr45 after he wakes from his nap, and trying to do the same as naptime routine but it's just not working. He will not go to sleep in the evening. He won't fall asleep on the boob, he won't fall asleep if I stand holding him in his room. He literally fights every attempt to get him to sleep. We use white noise which does calm him, but he just gets angrier and angrier until eventually he gives in. Sometimes he goes off straight away but wakes 30mins in, which made me think he's OT. I tried shortening his final A the other day to half an hour shorter (was about 2hr 45 when he fell asleep) and it worked a treat. Tried again tonight and he's being a nightmare again!!!

Once he's asleep, he's currently usually waking once for a breastfeed during the night, previously was sleeping through from around 8weeks/ 6 months.

The shocking bedtime began around the same time he started taking good daytime naps.

Do you think he could be UT rather than OT?!

I need an action plan as this is frustrating me spending 3 hours getting him to slee every night.

[sparklewings1984]

A few more details...

He sucks his thumb and cuddles a muslin for comfort.

He's got two teeth through and some more on the way but not bad enough to need pain relief at the moment. Bad separation anxiety is just kicking in, he searches a room to find me if he's being held by anyone else, starts crying if I turn my back to walk away etc.

He seems to be very sensitive to being OT, he will go from totally happy to crazy wired OT in the space of 5 minutes.

[creations]

Hi there
Sorry I don't have time to read and respond to your post right now but I saw you hadn't had a reply so I'm giving you a bump

[jessmum46]

I think you might be onto something with UT actually.  He really is taking good daytime naps, and A times are arguably a touch short so it's difficult to see how he would be OT on his daytime routine.   I think with 3x2h45 A time you're expecting him to be sleeping more than 15h a day which to me sounds like quite a lot.  I wonder if pushing his A times gently earlier in the day would make him more tired come bedtime?  He's at about 2h45 right now - could you do a low-key extend to 3h?  And then hold there a few days, before maybe pushing to more like 3h15? And see how that pans out? 

[sparklewings1984]

Thanks for the reply

I seem to recall from DS1 something about being OT even though he's having good naps... like he might be better with longer A times to make him more tired to get him to have a 3 slee cycle nap in the morning and then maybe a shorter A in the afternoon?

It's really hard for me to tell and we're now back into crazy teething requiring painkillers all night...

We had a bad night last night. Gave meds before bed at 7.30pm but still had manic crying in pain from 10.15-11.30pm, then awake at 4.15-5.30am. Gave meds both times and once they kick in he goes back to sleep fine. So he's been extra tired today.

WU 8.40am
S 11.10-12.50pm
S 3.10pm-4.35pm

Started bedtime at 7pm with pain meds, and he was asleep by 7.30 but woke up 30 mins later and is now still awake at 9.45pm!

Feel like we're getting into a vicious circle of OT/UT...

[jessmum46]

I think the thing to avoid is allowing too much catch up after a bad night.  Tomorrow he will again be tired because of the long awake time in the evening, but allowing him to sleep lots in the day is going to just perpetuate that.  My 3yo son is king of this so I'm very familiar!!! (Have just had to pretty much cold-turkey drop his nap for him after ridiculous UT/OT cycles and after a couple of weeks he is now sleeping so much better at night).

Personally I would push through with minimum 3h A times.  Accept it will be rough for a few days but he needs to start re-distributing his sleep to the night, not the daytime.  Give meds when needed, and use EBT if you need to if naps go wonky, but try not to let those A times slip back too much x

[sparklewings1984]

Ok so an update on the last couple of days

Friday
WU 7.50am
S 11.10-12.40pm
S 3.20-4.30pm
Bath 7pm
BT 7.30pm

He went straight to sleep at bedtime but then woke up 30mins later and wouldn't settle again until 10pm

We had night wakings at 12.30am and 1.30am (gave him calpol then and he slept through).

Saturday
Strange one because of the terrible Friday night he didn't wake up until I went into him at 9.45am. So I decided to push his A times and go for 1 nap and early bedtime. The problem is that I was out at the hairdresser so he didn't get milk before his nap and didn't sleep for long. The day went well though overall.

WU 9.40am
S 12.30-1.20pm
Bath 6pm
BT 6.30am

1 quick night waking at 5am for a huge milk feed and then he slept until 7.30am. He was obviously exhausted from the lack of sleep yesterday!

Sunday
WU 7.40am
S 10.40-12.20pm
S 3.10-3.30pm (catnap in pushchair)
Bath 6pm
BT 6.40pm

He woke up at 8pm and I'm not trying to resettle him an hour later as he wouldn't go straight back to sleep. I officially hate bedtime and feel like I don't get any time to myself in the evening which makes me so annoyed at him, and then I feel guilty for thinking that!

I know he is tired, he has big bags under his eyes and he's cranky before bedtime. He just won't go to sleep, even if I try feeding him to sleep or walking round with him in his blacked out bedroom, etc...

I'm still wondering if there's some OT here, rather than UT. He is crazy tired at bedtime as he goes into that manic state where everything is funny and he's screeching. But surely he can't be OT with these 1hr20-1hr40 naps in the daytime?

[sparklewings1984]

Do you think I should try one long nap and one shorter nap per day? Since he seems tired in the afternoons I'm tempted to cap his morning nap and then allowing him a longer afternoon nap, what do you think? So maybe something like

WU 7.30
S 10.30-11.30
S 2.30-4pm
BT 7.30pm

[jessmum46]

I don't think you're really in nap-capping territory yet - he's not quite made a consistent 3h between naps so there's a long way to go!  That routine you've suggested I suspect may not work because he's still only just getting 3h A times so you're still expecting him to manage 15h sleep in 24h - although that's within 'normal' (whatever that is) it would have been too much for my two.  I would personally keep away from nap capping, and instead let your day extend a little longer so that you can get up to 3h15-30 A time if he can handle that.  So perhaps if you feel he can't do more than 3h A time first thing try:

WU 7.30 (don't let him massively oversleep)
Nap 10.30-12/12.30 (max 2h)
3h15 A time
Nap
3h15 A time
BT

He will still be OT right now but it seems like that's because his sleep is distributed incorrectly - too much in the day and too little at night.  You need to grit your teeth a bit and push through some grumpy days until he starts making up the sleep at night instead x

[sparklewings1984]

So that would be a 9pm BT??? I'm really not sure I can cope with that after a full day with the baby and a nearly 3 year old, selfish I know 

He's definitely OT at bedtime and that's why he's doing the wake ups after 1 sleep cycle and then being crazy manic for 1-2 hours before he finally goes to sleep. When we do a "perfect" 3hr A, 1.5 nap, 3 hour A, 1.5 nap, 3 hour A day, then he's napping brilliantly but still have the bedtime wake up and battle back to sleep.

[jessmum46]

I agree I wouldn't want a 9pm bedtime either - but then you probably have to accept an earlier start to the day.  Would that work for you?  It's pretty standard to work on a 12h day and many LOs go to a 12.5-13h day in the run-up to nap dropping.  We've always worked on a 6.30/7 wake-up and BT between 6.30-7.30 depending on various stages of nap drop etc.  What would your ideal bedtime be?

I get that he seems OT at bedtime, and I agree that one cycle WU often is OT.....but I think he's overall OT from incorrect sleep distribution and short/disturbed nights rather than OT *just* from the day in question or the particular A time before bed.  My experience with mine is that OT WUs in the early part of the night are settled very quickly - not long and protracted like you have been getting.  The only times we've had those type of wakings is with pain/discomfort or UT. 

It's hard without being on the ground and seeing what you're seeing - but my feeling would be that if you've given the OT theory a test by shortening up on A times, and got nowhere, it's worth trying the other direction and giving it a good few days at least to see if things will settle.  I'll see if anyone else can pop in with some thoughts for you too x

[sparklewings1984]

Thanks for the help so far. I do agree with what you're saying about redistributing the sleep and his short nights making him OT. Ideally I would like bedtime no later than 8pm as our almost 3 year old is generally in bed sometime between 7 and 8pm. I don't have any problem with him waking between 6.30 and 7am either but I'm scared to wake him in the morning because of his late nights!

How do you think is best to tackle moving the mornings? Should I try 4 days of waking him at 7.30am and then 4 days at 7.15am and then 7am? And see what happens with bedtimes then?

Here is an update from the last few days:

Monday
WU 7.50am
S 11.30-12pm OT pram nap as we were out
S 2.35-3.30pm
BT 6.40pm

Woke at 7.45pm and wouldn't resettle until 9.40pm then slept through

Tuesday
WU 7.40am
S 10.40-12.50pm
S 3.40-5.10pm
BT 9pm (started trying at 8pm)

Slept through with quick milk feed at 1.30am

Wednesday
WU 8.20am
S 11.20-12.40pm
S 3.30-5pm
BT 8.15pm

Went straight to sleep but woke at 9pm and wouldn't resettle until 10.40pm. Slept through with quick milk feed at 4.30am.

[jessmum46]

Hi, just checking in to see how things have been going for you?

[sparklewings1984]

Sorry we've been away on holiday for 2 weeks and jetlag has thrown us a curve ball!

Whilst we were away though, he slept like a dream and now I'm certain he is UT usually. On holiday, he was getting 1 long and 1 short nap per day, as we were out all the time. And probably something between 3.5 and 4 hours A time... our day would go something like:

WU 8am
S 11.30 - 12.15pm
S 3.30-5pm
BT 8pm

We had no fusses at bedtime and no wake ups in the evening all but one day.

Currently trying to reset our days here by waking him up 1 hour earlier each day so that by the weekend we're back to 7am starts and then I'll start to tackle his A times properly again. Going to try and aim for 3.5 hours with 1 long and 1 short nap.

[jessmum46]

If that holiday routine was working then go with it!  You may need to gradually shorten the short nap as you go along to stop that long nap getting too late in the day and disrupting bedtime.  Let us know if you need any more help x