7 months old - night waking and early waking

[Oriental_noodle]

Hi,

Dad to twins and need help dealing with night and early waking for my 7 months son. Baby #2. This is his schedule (baby#1 has similar schedule):

WU 5:30 wakes (tried wake to sleep but no success due to his night waking @ 4:30)
E     6:30 feed 7oz formula
S     8:00 Nap 1 for 1.5 – 2 hours (wake time 2.5 hours)
W   10:00 Wake + bath
E    10:30 solid
E    11:30 feed 6oz formula (4 hours between feed)
S    12:30 Nap 2 for 1.5 – 2 hours (wake time 2.5 hours)
W  2:30 wake + playtime
E   4:00 snack (fruit) + 5oz pumped breastmilk (5 hours between feed)
E   5:45 feed 7oz formula (1:45 hours between breastmilk feed)
S   6:30 put to crib (wake time 4 hours)
     7:00 sleep

His daytime naps are good. Sleep in separate room w/ his twin brother Baby#1. We used to use shush/pat to send him to sleep since 4 month. Now, we only need to swaddle him and turn him sideway and he’ll fall asleep. If he wakes and cries, we pick him up and calm him for 1 min or 2 and put him back down immediately when he stops crying. He was never actually trained w/ PUPD but we always put him down when he’s sleepy.

For nighttime, we don’t swaddle him since he would toss around too much, we’re afraid he gets stuck. He wakes up at around 1:30, 3 and 4:30. We/nanny often pick him up to settle him and it often took 40-1 hour for him to go back to sleep (can’t do PUPD because he’d cry too much which wakes baby#1, thinking to train him with PUPD in our bedroom?).

Need help with:
1.   Fixing both baby with early waking.
    a.   Baby#2: couldn’t do wake-to-sleep since his 4:30 night wake
    b.   Baby#1 tried wake-to-sleep but he still wakes up @ 5-5:30, also try to extend sleep w/ PUPD until 6:30 without success (he often sleep through the night with occasionally night waking once/night but easily send back to sleep with PUPD)
2.   Fixing baby#2 with night time waking

Thank you very much

[becj86]

Hi

I have my suspicions that both your babies could do with a longer A time at the beginning of the day and that would help bring their WU time in the morning later. What's your ideal? I'd say its probably going to be best to work towards that by moving the morning nap later by 15min every 3 days or so until the WU is where you want it - that should help with problem no. 2 as well. When it starts getting earlier again or the wakings through the early hours of the morning start up again, just extend the A time a touch and that should hold you in good stead until the 2-1 in several months time.

Sounds like they both have good independent sleep skills and mostly you just need a routine tweak - PUPD is not really warranted here as yet because its most likely a routine issue, not a sleep skill issue.

Hope that makes sense.

[Oriental_noodle]

Hi becj86, thank you very much for your input

I will definitely try to extend A time from 2.5 to 3 hours at the beginning of the day as you suggested

I have another question about PUPD for baby from 6-8 months:
•   You pick them up in a cradle position and say “It’s okay, we’re just going to sleep.”. Don’t rock or sway and don’t make eye contact. 
•   Put them down immediately after you say your key phrase.

1. Our twins will keep crying in cradle position, they only clam down in upright position. Does it make any different?
2. Put them down immediately after saying key phrase --> even when they're still crying? My baby#1 is very high spirited. He scream loudly if we do it like this. Can we hold him to calm him down before putting him back down? maybe limit holding time to 1-2 min?

[becj86]

If your baby is spirited, PUPD is unlikely to help, it may even make things worse. Have they ever been independent sleepers? If so, sorting the routine should help and may fix your issue completely - it will go a long way even if not. Currently, you're working hard to make a baby sleep when they're not tired. Its generally not as hard to get them to sleep when they are tired.

[Oriental_noodle]

Hi becj86,

They're not independent sleeper yet, still need help going to bed. Here is what we do: bedtime routine then hold in upright position, sing one song couple times, put down
- Baby#1: often he will move his hands up and down, scratch his ear/face. We hold his hands to his body and sing the song. He shake his head a bit and then fall to sleep. We keep our hand on him for 5-10 mins
- Baby#2: turn him sideways, keep hand on him 5-10 mins. If he still not settle/cry/turn around the crib, pick him up to calm him. Put down when he's calm

Should we train them to sleep independent? If so which method besides PUPD? Thanks

[becj86]

What you're doing is fine. You can slowly reduce your assistance for sleep without doing PUPD if you prefer. Either way, wait until the routine is a bit more suitable for them before you try PUPD again.

[Oriental_noodle]

Hi becj86,

Been trying to push A time to 2h45'. Often, he gets too tired and then only sleep for 30 mins. Try to send him back to sleep but couldn't. I'm a bit lost about what to do next. He definitely can't stay awake for 3 hours after a 30 mins nap. How do I follow the schedule (A time 3 hours, S 1.5 - 2 hrs)? If I put him down an hour after he wakes from 30 mins, how long should I let him sleep until?

[becj86]

Ok, so something you can try with the 30min naps is to be there at 25min and hold or shush/pat through the jolts / stirring that can happen at that time. Just doing that for a few days can help break that OT cycle and get him sleeping longer naps again. I found that OT wakings were easy to resettle if you were there at the time but impossible if LO was worked up.

If I put him down an hour after he wakes from 30 mins, how long should I let him sleep until?

I would suggest sticking with a long(ish) A time and reducing by half the lost sleep. so a 2:15-2:30 A time rather than an hour. This is a middle ground to give you an idea of which way to go with reduction of A time for your LO following a short nap which is an area of huge variability between babies. Is LO very distressed at 1hr?

[Oriental_noodle]

Thank you so much becj86. Will try as you suggested about A time after short nap & helping him to pass the 30' mark nap

Pushing A1 to 2h45' - 3h definitely helps with the night wakings. He's been sleeping better, wake up only once a night (although it took almost 1h to send him back to sleep). We will try wake-to-sleep method for the night waking and early waking

[becj86]

. He's been sleeping better, wake up only once a night (although it took almost 1h to send him back to sleep).

What's he like during this long NW? Could be still needing more time first thing in the AM. Get the nap lengthened first though!