OT at BT - Need advice

[MiniNs]

I’ve been on this board several times but hoping I can gain some more advice.
DS2 is 14weeks and has never napped well. He naps for 35-45mins, and does not self settle. In the sling he has napped for longer but he’s too heavy for that now. An accumulation of a day full of cat naps now means that come BT he’s refusing a feed (despite me knowing he should be hungry) and just wants to sleep. He’s screams on the bottle and then I get over tired cried as I cuddle him to sleep he also used to sleep until 6:30/7 but has now started waking at 5:15-45..

Our day differs depending on WU and naps but here’s a rough idea of the mess we are in...

WU: 5:45-6:30
A: around 1hr15/20 - I start WD when rubbing his eyes, as this is the only cue I get. This is normally around 1hr-1hr 10.
S: (held to sleep as after trying sssh pat to no avail I’m not sure what to try) 40mins

He then more often than not shows tired cues again after 30mins but I can rarely get him back down.

So we end up in a cycle similar to above - 1hr15 ish awake, followed by a 35-45min cat nap. I feed 3-3.5 hourly around this rubbish naps, which end up being 4-5 of them per day. He normally has his last feed around 4-4:30, last catnap around 4:30-5pm (so he’s awake from anywhere between 5:15-6pm) and then we bath at 6:15, feed at 6:45 and put down at 7pm.
I dreamfeed around 10:30 (but lately has been waking earlier due to refusing BT milk), then a feed around 2:30 and then stirring from 5:15, awake by 5:45. He used to stir at 5:15 but sleep til 6:30/7.

Any tips for A time  or extending naps please, or any other tweaks.

AOB
I’ve tried sssh/pat to get him to self settle after WD but he seems to get very angry and worked up.
I’ve tried both ssh/pat and w2s, to extend naps.  several times but they don’t seem to be effective - again sssh pat seems to end in him fully waking and being frustrated and W2S has only ever worked once out of all the times I’ve tried.. I know he’s too young for PUPD but I’m not sure it would work as he doesn’t seem to  *want* to be held and doesn’t always calm down when I pick him up. H just seems very angry and frustrated about sleep.

I have a 2 year old at home so my time frame for getting ds2 down and any attempts to resettle often have to be kept to 10-15mins max, which I know is limiting. I’m trying my best to give DS2 the time he needs to be supported to sleep

[Philothea]

Have you tried gently extending his A time? He may be unable to self settle and have long naps because he's UT early in the day and then get OT by later in the day. Your story reminds me a lot of where I was with DD at that age. She needed around 1:40 A to do a long nap.

[MiniNs]

Thank you so much for your reply - I really appreciate it.

I’ve tried changing A times...anything from 1hr - 1h30. We did accidentally get to 1h45 the other day and it still made no difference, in fact he shortened to 30mins so was probably OT?. I feel like we don’t have much consistency in his A time and I have no idea what he needs. As a general rule, he’s yawning or grizzly after 1h A, then rubbing eyes by 1h10/15ish, sometimes earlier. I will try pushing it a little longer again though, as at the moment I’m tending to stick to 1h15ish again.
But his feed schedule is approx 3.5hours so I’m not sure how I can combine his A time with this?!

This morning on his first nap he had 1h20 A time (I went by his tired cues for put down time), napped for 50mins (I did W2S after 30mins, then he stirred and i did sssh/pat after 40mins, but then could not resettle on the next stirring/waking) but then he was grizzly and crying and yawning again after 30mins A time so I’ve now had to rock him to sleep while he OT cries.

I’m desperate to extend his naps. He doesn’t self settle at all and I know this is a problem for connecting cycles but if I even put him down drowsy then he fully wakes and cries.

[Philothea]

What baby temperament is your boy? He sounds so much like my touchy/textbook munchkin.

Is there anything else going on with him? Reflux or allergies or something else that's made it hard for him to learn to self settle? How's his weight gain? Do you check each nap that the room is the right temp with sufficient blankets?

What's his sleep environment like? White noise, swaddle, darkened? I'm assuming he doesn't take a dummy since you've never mentored one.

[Philothea]

My first thought is that if he gets to 45min and you can't even resettle with APOP, that sounds UT.

When you extend the A time, the way to avoid OT at the sudden change is to consistently give an extra 10min for a few days, then add another 10min. At first you may not see results because its still not long enough but jumping it up quickly (even to what would actually end up being the ideal time) can cause OT.

Perhaps you could focus on the first A of the day to avoid confusion after any short naps. Although 10hr45 isn't a long night it doesn't fall under the 10hr30 threshold of a short one. Ignore the tired cues and go by times as bubs sometimes give cues when they're expecting their nap to be rather than because they're actually tired enough. Push him out 10min for 3 days running and then another 10min and see how you go.

It does mask things using props to get them to sleep. Have you tried getting him to take a dummy? Have you tried modifying he sh/pat method? Mine all hated being patted on their backs but Gemma settles with me patting her bottom. When I first started using it to help her settle, it had to be firm enough to be lifting her and pretty fast, to mimic the heartbeat they would have felt on their bottom while they were in the womb. Now she prefers it more gentle.

[Philothea]

(Sorry, wiring in instalments around my day)

With extending naps, have you tried HTTJ? I have very jerky babies too and it 's helped a few of them. https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=223809.0

[MiniNs]

Firstly - thank you so much for taking time out of your day to post so many replies to me. I am forever grateful. I will try and answer your questions and hope I don’t miss anything!

He is a textbook/spirited baby. He *does* have treatments for a milk allergy and reflux which have meant he has been held ALOT (aka all the time) for the first 3 months of his life which means he has never had to self settle and this is the first time I am teaching him- or trying to. I am happy that his treatments are working and that he isn’t uncomfortable and waking because of this. Although, of course, it is always a possibility.

His weight gain is more than adequate, and his room has a thermometer that I check and use blankets accordingly.

I agree, that because APOP and W2S doesn’t work, that he is UT. But then even when extended to 1h40ish (today we had A times including 1h35 and 1h45) it’s still happening and that’s quite a way past the timings recommend for his age? I’m happy to gently extend his awake time by 10mins every few days, from the current 1h15, but I’m Not sure what to aim for? Or do I just keep going until he sleeps longer or APOP works easily to resettle? When he has a short nap should I be shortening his A time to avoid OT? Or just keep pushing onto the next timing?

About a dummy - he does have one and will take it to settle during WD. But he more often than not spits it out before nodding off completely and won’t take a replug unless he’s awake - I cannot gently pop it back in whilst stirring for instance - and even then he will angrily refuse it. In the night he doesn’t take replugs of his dummy at all.

I’ve tried to modify the ssh/pat by patting back/bum/chest. I think he prefers a firm hand lay on his chest but it doesn’t always work, sometimes a gentle rock will help but is this APOP?

In terms of HTTJ, I do try where possible to go in at the 30min mark tontrt W2S and then stay with him for 20mins to see him through startles... but I have a toddler at home too and I cannot leave him for the length of time required, most of the time. I’ve tried swaddling too but he HATES it. He hasn’t happily been swaddled since about 4 weeks old and has always slept with his hands up by his face - which doesn’t help when he starts stirring.

[ZanesOTmom]

Hi there. Just letting you know, my 2mo needs 1h30 to 1h45 A time for a good 2-3hr nap. It does vary so your LO could very well need more than guidance times. I have a toddler too and yes it’s very tricky and difficult sleep training a newborn for sure.

[MiniNs]

Hi there. Just letting you know, my 2mo needs 1h30 to 1h45 A time for a good 2-3hr nap. It does vary so your LO could very well need more than guidance times. I have a toddler too and yes it’s very tricky and difficult sleep training a newborn for sure.

Thanks - that’s really interesting that your little one needs such a long awake time for his age. I’ve gone up to 1h45 but it’s not making a difference -  (only on the first A, as after that he gets too tired to go longer after that because he’s catnapped.)

[MiniNs]

Ok, so this morning I did a 1h45 on his first A time and got a 35min nap!! That’s OT right? So he needs less A time? But in the past when I’ve tried the odd 1hr45, it’s got me a 40-45mins nap?

[Katet]

That's the problem it's not an exact science. The level of stimulation comes into play, the quality of sleep the day before etc. Some babies struggle to join cycles just because they do. It's hard at the time, but in a few months it's unlikely to be an issue as they naturally join the cycles.
Sometimes as a parent (increasingly as they get preschool/school) iits worth thinking " do I hear stents of older children worrying about this" and if the answer is "no" then it's probably a passing issue.