Cannot get second nap time right for 5 month old... Ever!

[mothergoose]

Please can someone help me shed some light on this.... I have a 5 month old who is an independent sleeper.... for her morning nap she goes down like a dream and is asleep just within the 2 hours (swaddled and white noise... Would never take a dummy) she will sleep for usually 2 hours sometimes 2hr 25min
After this it goes pear shaped....
She fights her second nap for sooo long whether I put her in at anything from 1hr 40 to 2hr 30...have experimented with different a times.
She seems tired really early during this a time..... Seems tired about 1hr 15 or 20 and I have tried putting her in at this with variable results... She will sometimes go to sleep quicker and sleep 45-1hr 15...sometimes I can get her back at 45min and she sleeps a further hour
Cat nap she will do in her cot if the second nap has not gone too awry... We put down after 1hr 40 for this
Bedtime has always been a struggle as her days go so wrong after the first nap and she is always overtired by bedtime. Often we cheat and put her in the sling for the start of the night or feed to sleep just to try and catch up on some of the over tiredness.... She is chronically overtired I think and wakes up a lot during the night... I generally feed back to sleep as I too exhausted to anything else.
So my questions are....
Have any of you had babies this age who have very different a times for the first and second naps?
Do you think she actually isn't an independent sleeper even though she can do it for her first nap or does she lose that ability when she is so overtired just?
Is it possible to teach a baby to fall asleep despite over tiredness or are there some babies who just can't handle overtiredness.... This baby seems to stay awake for hours when overtired she completely nforgetsbhow to fall asleep... If we miss the boat with bedtime we can have up to about 3 hours of alternate crying blowing bubbles and kicking legs usually until we give in an help her to sleep as I am so panicked that she will be even more overtired or never sleep
So average day
8am wake breastfeed
10am sleep 1hr 25 to 2hrs
12pm eat
2pm try to put down fights nap 3pm finally falls asleep for 30 to 45min
4pm eat
5.30 catnap
6pm wake
7pm bed
Fights bed... Asleep in sling 8pm eats 10pm 12 2 5
And repeat
It's a mess I know!
Help me x

[deb]

Just seeing this now - I don't get here as often now that my firstborn who brought me here is about to start college. LOL

The thing that struck me was the number of times she's waking in the night to eat. This means she'll be waking kind of overtired but still fresh for the day simultaneously. Are you doing a dreamfeed or is she waking fully? Also, is she still exclusively breastfed or has she started solids? She may need more calories if she's waking so frequently. Is she taking full feeds? Have you tried giving her a pacifier (assuming she takes one) on those wakings to see if she just wants to suckle something?

I suspect you'll also see a big change around the 6-month mark; there are some big developmental changes around then, plus teething and crawling aren't far off then either.

I'll try to remember to get back here sometime this week to check in. Meanwhile, make sure she's getting LOTS of tummy time: physical exercise can help tire her out. Also not sure where you are but water time seems to wear babies out, so if you have a splash pool she can play in before a scheduled naptime, you might get some mileage out of that. We used to take my kids to the pool when they were babies & even thru preschool between supper and bedtime and "float" them in our arms on their backs and they'd sleep like logs on those nights.

[mothergoose]

Hi Deb thanks so much for reply.... Yes the night feeds are problematic... She is exclusively breastfed and will not take a bottle as I would love to be able to top her up at night with formula or even expressed milk so I would know she is not hungry. She will not take a dummy despite multiple attempts. Its hard to know if she is genuinely hungry or just comfort feeding. She takes a full feed and would stay on sucking forever if I did not remove her. She wakes before we get a chance to dream feed. My husband has tried settling for some of these wakeup and where she would settle with rocking or shush pat for naps she won't at night and nothing but fed will do.
We have made some progress since last post.... Extended second A time slightly and putting her down later she is going down a lot easier for her second nap so today was
Awake  and eat 7.30
Sleep 9.30 to 10.55
Awake and eat 10.55
Sleep 1.10 woke after 10min...resettled and slept further 45min...resttled and slept further 10 min... Until 2.30
Eat 2.30
Sleep 4.10 until 4.50
Eat 5pm
Sleep 6.20 to 6.40 woke and would not resettle so fed 7pm asleep briefly with this but woke (with gas I think) and awake from 7.15 until 9pm until felt so sorry for her put her in sling... Sleeping now 
So I think she is accumulating a bit of OT along the way.... Both from extending the A time and because we are trying to get her in her cot instead of sling at the early part of the night and have had good success past 2 days but today she needs some help....
I actually think 1hr 25 nap is often an OT nap for her... She crashes through 2 sleep cycles I think... I know it's UT more commonly but she seems to sleep that after an extra long A time e. g. If we are out and it is unavoidable.
Unfortunately the sling is the only way we have to help her catch up when she is really Ot as she gets an upset stomach when she feeds too often and will not sleep with feeding. She also does not sleep in the pram and only for 30min in the car. I think if we could get the OT sorted the night would improve and we would be able to extend her first A time a bit as well... What do you think? Would you keep persisting in her cot when overtired or try to help? Am I unusual in having a baby that does not seem to crash at all with overtired Ness and rather just gets totally wound up for so long?!
The idea about the swimming is great. We are in Ireland so weather not the most reliable but there is a local pool too. She does get plenty of stimulation and tummy time. Probably too much stimulation with her two older siblings
Sorry for the long rambling post and thanks for your help

[mothergoose]

So to update you the second nap is now more consistent but nights are still bad... No matter how the naps go nights seem to stay bad and I wonder is it accumulated overtiredness?! Her A time in the morning is also very variable and if she has been up a lot the night before will show tired signs even before 1.5hrs.
Will you take a look at yesterday and tell me what you think.....
Awake 7.45
Fed 8.30
Sleep 9.40 - 10.20 seemed tired but unable to resettle
Eat 11 could not hold her off longer
Activity 1hr 40
Sleep 11.40 for ten minutes woke crying 15min to resettle sleep 11.55 - 1.20
Eat 1.30
A 1hr 45
Sleep 3 .15 to 5.20 resettled at 45min
Bed 7.20...numerous wakings 8.30...9.20...10...11.30...eventually stopped counting and brought her in beside me where she settled but early waking at 4.20 eventually resettled until 7.30


Any thoughts?

[deb]

Sorry for the long silence - I just started a new job and remote teaching takes about ten times as long to get anything done as in-person. LOL

At this age I'd probably be cutting back to two naps, lengthening the A time if possible. I'm wondering if the unsettled sleep might be due to teething pain. Have you tried pain meds before sleep times to see if it makes a difference?