Is she waking because she is hungry or waking during REM?

[CharlotteandCharlie]

Oh so confused...

Since my daughter was 2.5 months old she had been sleeping through the night.  She is now 5 months old and as of three weeks ago she began waking 2 and 3 times a night.  My husband and I started giving her a bottle at the first waking (between 11 - 2 a.m.) so she wouldn't wake only for mommy's milk.  I feed her every time after that.  We also started the bottle so my breasts wouldn't increase their supply and continue to be engorged.  Since she had been sleeping through the night my breasts never regulated and lumps and pain would persist so I didn't want it to worsen with the new multiple feedings. 

So I am wondering if she is just really hungry and waking for food.  Is she not getting enough during the day from my breasts?  Why after the bottle does she still wake within 2-3 hours.  When she wakes she is inconsolable (NO pat/shh possible) and always has been.  I am so confused as to why she would be doing this.  The health nurse thought it would be a good idea for me to start rice cereal and two days ago I did.  I was going to start anyway at five months.  Am I shooting myself in the foot by not feeding her that first waking to increase my supply?  Is she not getting enough to eat during the day?  Could this be an REM issue?  She is grumpy most of the day and always has been.  I have never been a good pumper (pain and little result). 

Any advice would be very appreciated. 

p.s.  It is 11:20 p.m. and she woke five times since 7:15 p.m.  We were able to pat/shh till just now but in the middle of the night she is frantic.

Thank you.

[CharlotteandCharlie]

Me again!  Last night she woke up at 4.  Both breasts.  Went to sleep like a dream by 5.  Up again at 6:40 and again at 7:20.  She ate from both breasts again.  Maybe we don't have a supply problem?

I knew I was spoiled with her sleeping through at 2.5 months but getting up 2 and 3 times a night with a five month old seems odd and exhausting.   :shock:

Thanks if anyone can help.

[Aarismom]

Ok, let's start with a daily schedule. What is her nap/feed schedule like? How many oz. per feeding is she getting? If she's drinking from both breasts or taking a full meal from a bottle, chances are she's probably hungry for it, and she needs that feeding. At most though, most lo's need only 1 or 2 feedings per night, with phasing out by 6 months. However, if she's been sleeping through the night until the last 3 weeks, it may be she's just not getting enough during the day.

If she really is hungry, I think the health nurse might be right, starting her on solids may be a good idea in order to fill the extra calorie needs. Be aware though that sometimes when you start solids, it may upset their little tummies for a week or so until their system gets use to it, and sleep schedules will be affected most likely. Start by giving them at breakfast and/or lunch only. Don't give any at dinner time until solids are established.

Also, if she's waking during the night at around the same time every night, you may have a night waking habit on your hands, and the only way that can be fixed is time and consistant method for soothing. If you're giving her a bottle or breast, try reducing the amount of milk you give her per feeding over several days.

This is just a start, we really need a daily schedule in order to give better advice

*HUGS*
Sonya =P

[CharlotteandCharlie]

Thank you so much for responding.

Our day starts around 7-8. 

BF, burp, bum change
As of three days ago she has rice cereal about 30 mins later
Awake for 1 hour wash hands and face
Nap time.  (usually crying fits but asleep within 7 mins)
Sleeps for 40 mins (sometimes less, rarley more)
Wakes up crying loudly
BF immediately, burp sit and rock a bit (I try to get in some cuddles where I can)
then I try to get her to play, on her back, tickles, toys (she has about a 5 - 10 minute attention span before getting mad)
then I carry her and we walk around the house for a while so she doesn't cry
I watch for yawning and eye rubbing which usually happens within an hour again
I try to extend this by carrying her because an hour seems too short for A time.
We don't do  a 3 hour or 4 hour EASY at ALL.  She seems to really like being on the breast and doesn't tolerate waking up without getting it soon after.  If her naps are only 40 minutes she is going roughly two hours before eating again.

I got off topic but that is how our day goes.

As night she will have a cat nap around 5 if needed depending on her last nap and then around 7 we start bedtime.  I BF her (oh, I forgot I have been one sided feeding since she was born) then we burp, change her bum, have a story, try to snuggle and then swaddle.

I have been taking this morning nap to read the Spirited Baby link http://www.babywhisperer.com/forum/support-group-for-moms-of-spirited-babies-vt40851.html and I find myself in tears.  It is amazing how much better you feel when you know your not alone.  I realize I do have a spirited baby and all the other mothers who have posted to that thread have taken the words out of my mouth (my husband hears all about it daily).  If any of you are reading this THANK YOU!

Any suggestions on what to do with our newest dilemma? Oh, the late night bottle (the only one during the day) is 7 oz.

Many thanks.

[Aarismom]

Ok, a few other suggestions

You are correct about the "A" time...she should be up to about 2 hours, maybe a little bit more. However, if you've been putting her down earlier, since she seems to be a little on the grumpy side as well, you'll want to extend "A" time very slowly...maybe 5-10 mins every few days. She's getting to the age where you can start to watch the clock more than her sleepy signs. A lot of LO's will start to exhibit sleepy signs a half hour to an hour before they're actually ready to go to sleep. Mine started doing that when she got up to 2 hours of "A" time.

Feed wise, she should be on a solid 4 hour EASY if you can get to it Each meal should be around 6-7 oz. per feeding (maybe more if she has a hearty appitite), and rice cereal a half hour to an hour after each feeding at this point (you'll eventually want to switch them around, but right now after milk is good ) 25-32 oz. per day is a good number milk wise. As for rice cereal, personally, I'd just let her eat as much as she wants, but some moms are saying 1-2 tblspns are good. It's really up to you...if she starts rejecting the milk then you know that you need to back off on how much cereal she gets.

Another suggestion is to do a yeild check to see how much she's getting from the breast. I'm not sure if you've done this in a while or not, or if the one bottle she gets is formula or expressed milk.

Sounds like you're on track, just need to tweak things a little!

*HUGS*
Sonya =P

[CharlotteandCharlie]

Thank you.  I have not done a yield from my breast because I have never been successful in getting more than 2 oz out and by then I am in pain.  I have tried this when my breasts are full and semi full. 

So do you think that the night time issues are mostly realted to hunger?  I hope so.  I will try to tackle it like it is.  Thankyou.

I just put her down and did a gentle wind down as suggested in the treads I read this a.m.  It worked very nicely.

I am getting very concered that my milk is depleating?  I am just now getting over being sick for the last 2.5 weeks with cold/flu symptoms.  Charlie never showed signs of illness but infact began chit chatting and rolling over and trying to sit up.  They change so fast. 

I am going to read some treads on bf and milk supply during illness.

Thank you and have a wonderful evening.

[KellyC]

Hi

I just wanted to say that I've never been able to express more than about 1 or 2 ounces at a time (often less) except first thing in the morning at the same time as Zander's first feed but I know I don't have a supply issue (you only need to look at my healthy growing boy to see this!).  Lots of mums have problems expressing because our LOs are SO much more efficient at getting the milk out.

HTH

Kelly x