FRUSTRATED!!!!

[LLLena]

OK... I posted on the wrong board because I thought this was a food issue (BF).  But I am reading on this board and now know that it is more of a sleep issue.  The short story is that my lo is almost 6 mos old and have only been able to get him settled for naps and nighttime sleep by bf him to sleep.  Mind you, that started because he is on the long and thin side and the ped was worried and then I got paranoid and probably started the AP.  This was about a month or so ago.  I am just realizing that I have done this myself.  It also didn't help that my mom, who has watched ds alot, might have also been giving him a bottle to "help him relax and fall asleep."  She says that she can't remember if she had done that, so my take is that she did.  And between the two of us, this sleep monster has been created.  I should also note that ds has always had plenty of wet/poopy diapers and is always alert and ready for action.  His weight is probably more due to bf rather than anything else.

Up until about this whole mess started, he was really great at going off to sleep without too many problems. 

I should also mention that he is drooling terribly and teething.  Will this ever get better??  I am about ready to pull my hair out.   

Our current routine is loosely based on this:


E: 7-730am BF for about 15 min total
A: 730-930/945
E: 9:30-9:45 BF
S: 945-1045/11am

E: 11am BF
A: 11:20ish-130/2pm
E: ~1:30-2pm BF
S: 2-3:30/4pm

E: 4pm BF
A: 4:20-6pm
E: 6pm BF
A: 6-630pm/bathtime
E: 6:45p BF
S: 7pm

Dream feeds at 9 & 11pm with wake ups at 3am and 5-6am.

I would really like to get rid of the second E in the routine, but don't know how to get him to stop.  He falls asleep on breast and doesn't seem to be able to relax enought to fall asleep otherwise.  This was a very poor habit that we found ourselves in and I really want this to stop.  HELP!  Any suggestions are appreciated.

[Jaime]

hi,

only have a moment, but this is a great thread to help you stop breaking the feed-to-sleep connection:

https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=52857.0

[Missy Lou]

just from looking at your routine, he looks like he's staying up really long for 6 months.  3 hours is a long time.  how long have you had this routine?  could be that the nursing to sleep and the 3 hours are related?  he may be overtired.  i have a spirited lo and i completely understand the always being alert and ready for action, even at 2 in the morning.  i have to put my lo in her crib after 2.25 hours or so.  at that time, she looks like she's still fine and wants to play but the second i put her in her crib, her eyes start to droop.  this is a problem for us also because my MIL watches lo during the day and even though i tell her, she still waits until lo is rubbing her eyes and starting to fuss before putting her down. 

so with a spirited lo, i would be more of a clock watcher because in my experience, they'll play until they have a melt down. 

as far as the eating thing, i assume that he eats a lot each time he nurses?  he's not just snacking?  are you doing solids?  at 6 months, you should probably start unless there are health issues.  i was a small baby, my lo was about 5.5 pounds at birth and everyone said oh what a small baby.  she's about 15.5 now and has fat thighs.  from what my doc said, as long as they continuously gain weight and height, baby is fine.  not to discount your doc but just to reassure.

when i was nursing, there were a lot of diaper changes also.  i'd change when she got up and then just before going down.

if he used to be able to sleep easily, he'll be able to do it again.  but he's 6 months and changing a lot so we just need to adjust.  it will get better.  it sounds like your lo is a very easy-going baby.  we'll figure out what he needs to get back on track (even if it takes a bit).

would you mind trying cutting back on the A time and seeing how that works?  when it time to lay him down, try pu/pd or shhhing.  my lo gets a little irritated sometimes with pu/pd so i just put my hand on her chest and shhh.  i will pick her up when she gets too upset but continue the shhhing.  if you want more in depth info about pu/pd try that board which has a ton of good advice.

let us know what happens.
melissa

[LLLena]

Thanks for your reply.  I am going to re-start the 4hr EASY tomorrow w/ the PU/PD routine for naps/sleeptime.  We have found ourselves way off track and need a jolt back on.  I will post our transition notes.  Thanks for your support.

[Missy Lou]

good.  it's hard to keep going when things get so crazy.  good luck and please post with questions and updates.
melissa

[LLLena]

It is 9:30PM and so far it is getting better.  He took 1 hr 45 minutes to get down for the first nap and I only let him sleep for 15 minutes per Tracy's schedule to get him on the 4 hr EASY.  The other naps were so much easier to get him down with 20 minutes and 18 minutes and then for bedtime 8 minutes.  I only hope that the night goes just as good.  I am impressed that it is working and I can see obvious progress right away. 

Another thing I did this morning was to remove his paci from the environment.  I must admit that I waivered at first, but when he was inconsolable this morning the paci didn't matter.  So it obviously wasn't going to help him and I decided to pull it off the prop list.  After the first attempt to get him down this morning for 1 hr and 45 minutes, I wasn't really sure about being able to do this because it was so hard on him.  But I now see that he really needed some help.

The PU/PD is hard only to see him get so upset.  I am glad there was a resource on this site as how to do it properly without confusing him or myself.  I still felt bad, but if so many people find solice from this method, then we should find some too. 

Oh - also about the BF... I can tell a huge difference too in that he is not just snacking throughout the day and making a concerted effort to eat now.  He still has as many wet diaper, so that makes me feel good too!

Thanks for your help and I will report back tomorrow about how great the night went. (Positive thinking!)

[Missy Lou]

i'm glad today went well.  i think the immediate results come from the fact that babies like that routine.  even whenever things go haywire again, at least you know that it's just a phase and things will get back on track again since you've worked so hard to lay a good foundation for your lo.

have you checked out the prop site on suggestions for weaning the pacifier?  there are a ton of great ideas or just support for the initial weaning period. 
melissa

[LLLena]

I did look at the prop site, but found that some ideas were to do gradual.  And, I am not sure that is a good idea.  He is having a rough enough time now and I don't want to confuse him.  He seems to be getting along well without it, and I am not positive that I won't give it to him during the day.  But if he can fall asleep without it now, should I really consider reintroducing it? 

He is starting to pull it out and put it back in his mouth.  But often times in the bedroom I have been picking it up from the floor, so that also makes me wonder if it is worth it. 

I am thrilled so far with the success of PU/PD.  Hopefully it'll get even better.

Thanks!

[Missy Lou]

weaning stuff is so hard to figure out.  i haven't been brave enough to move onto the pacifier yet.  we're still working on the swaddle and i never know the answers to the questions you're asking myself.  if he sleeps ok without it, he doesn't need it for comfort so you're probably right about not using it during the day.  what instances are you thinking of using it?  maybe find something else he likes to give him instead of the pacifier.  a lot of moms suggested a lovey of some kind. 

i think i saw something about cold turkey though.  if i find it, i'll post it here. 

that's great about pu/pd.  i know there's a lot of good info and tips on the board here.  i'm glad it helped you guys.  i really think that when we lay a good foundation with the stuff tracy talks about that even when baby goes through a rough spot, it's easy to get them back on track because it's what they're already used to. 

good luck and keep us posted.
melissa

[LLLena]

It is good to know that we aren't alone in figuring all this out!  The paci removal has been pretty good so far.  He found his fingers more fun quite often before I pulled paci and he's using them more now, which is good.  I think it is good anyway.  I was thinking of giving the paci back during the day AFTER we get through this week or two of re-setting the routine.  I was thinking of using it in the car or while he has access to being able to put it in or pull it out. 

Last night could've been better, but it could've been worse.  I DF him around 1030pm and he woke at 130am and ended up crying for about 10 minutes.  I did waiver on the paci last night though and used it for a short.  It was really dumb and I knew better.  I thought if I could get him to go back to sleep with it, it would be a lot easier than staying up all night arguing (figuratively) about him not getting a night feed.  Long story short, 20 minutes later, he decided that wasn't good enough and started crying again.  That lasted until about 3am.  I feel like it was a lot of my own fault for trying the paci again.  But considering that he is accustomed to getting several feeds a night, it really wasn't that bad. 

Today was marginal. but getting better.  I added a late afternoon nap and that seems to make going to bed a lot easier.  He had a 40 minute nap and then got up for bedtime routine and he went right to bed without argument.  It was unbelievable.  I can only hope that it continues even better tomorrow. 

Thanks for your support and help.  I am so glad that my dh found out about BW. It has been an unbelievable life saver for me.  And I am thrilled to have found this website too.  Overall, I can't ever say enough about these methods and how they have made me feel more confident as a mother.  I never used to appreciate it when people would say that kids don't come with instructions.  I think BW is the next closest thing.   

[Missy Lou]

i totally agree with you.  i've had to adjust the routine tracy suggests to fit my lo but it's amazing how babies generally act/react certain ways and it makes things a lot easier, at least for me, to have a general idea of what to expect and possible fixes.  if there isn't a fix and it's just a phase they have to get through, you're right about this website.  it has saved my sanity. 

good luck with the paci weaning.  if it gets too crazy, don't be afraid to try a gradual weaning though.  like i said, i haven't been brave enough yet but it seems to work for some babies to gradually wean instead of cold turkey. 

it sounds like you and dh are doing a great job.  please let post any new questions and successes.
melissa

[LLLena]

Let me bounce his new schedule off of you.  I wonder if I am expecting too much sleep time. 

E: wake and eat 7-730-ish
A: 730-900 with E fruit/cereal around 745-800
S: 9-1100
E: 11-1115-ish
A: 1115-1pm
S: 1-3-ish
E: 3-315 or 320
A: 315-5pm
S: cat nap 5-545 or so
E: bedtime routine - bf 6pm, 615 fruit/cereal
A: bathtime 620-635p
E: darned ol' bottle 4 oz 645
S: 7p
E: DF 10p
E: 130-200 looking for feed, but I am only doing shh/pat, pu/pd back to sleep... he wants to be fed. Is that due to our previous routine?
E: 5-530A-ish finally giving him a night feed - it has been long enough for him, hasn't it?

Since we are starting this new routine, I am not sure if I am making him sleep too much or even if I should be giving him a earlier night feeding.  Tonight was better with the middle of the night wake.  It was only 20 minutes to settle vs 1.5 hrs lastnight.  But I am still wondering if I should be feeding him once.  Oh-the bottle is because of the weight issue.  I am not sure how much longer I will be doing that since we are introducing solids and giving more calories. 

So far, the times to put him down are taking less overall and I really can see progress.  But I sure hate to see him cry so hard.  At least I can see progress and the crying is getting less. 

Thanks again for your support and help with this. 
-Lena

[Missy Lou]

so you're nursing and giving a bottle?  but are trying to drop the bottle?

as far as the routine goes, it think the A time is good.  but i'd cut a half hour off the naps.  like do one of the naps 2 hours and the other 1.5 hours.  my lo usually likes to sleep more in the morning.  see what aidan prefers.  but 5 hours nap time is a little much for a 5.5 month old.  for a bit, our routine was a little different where she'd get up from catnap about 5:15 (going down about 4:30) and then she'd be up for 2 hours before bed.  that was different from when she was younger because she used to only be up about an hour before bed.  but this starts when lo when ready to drop the catnap.  they start to stay up longer periods before bed. 

so try cutting a half hour of naptime out and see if lo can handle being up about 1.75 or 2 hours before bed. 

does aidan wake up for the df or any time before that?

when you fed during the night, did he eat what he normally does or is it less?  i don't know about still feeding during the night.  my lo stopped eating at night about 14 weeks maybe.  but she was on formula so i don't know if that makes a difference.  plus, some babies eat during the night longer for different reasons.  i'd ask the breast feeding board but i was wondering if maybe he'd eat more during the day?  that way he'd be full for the night?  i don't know though so ask the moms on the other board who know more than i do.

it still breaks my heart to see my lo cry.  i just don't know what's wrong sometimes.  when does he cry really hard? 
melissa

[LLLena]

Yes, I am primarily BF and only give him 4 oz of formula at bedtime.  The only reason that I have been doing it is because the dr said that he needed more calories than he was getting throughout the day, ie breast milk not enough for him.  That is partially how we ended up in such a mess because I thought I was starving him.  Now, I know that I wasn't, but am still watching his weight.  I would like to drop the formula as soon as possible when we are doing more solids w/ more calories throughout the day. 

Today was particularly rough.  I am not sure if this is just wearing me down or not.  He started back on solids last week with fruit and rice cereal.  The dr wanted him to start at 4 mos and I reluctantly did.  Long story short, ds has a very sensitive belly and gets constipated if you look at him. (well, almost.)  He is dairy and soy intolerant and we are using the super expensive Alimentum for his formula, which does work for him.  Anyway, he couldn't tolerate the solids and I stopped it because I had to give him the ol' glycerin enema (five of them) for him to poop in the 2 wks that I was giving him solids.  The reason so many was because he had stomach cramps and everyone said that it'll take some time for him to adjust to it and to keep giving it with some juice.  Well, I now know that I know better than anyone else about his sensitive belly. 

Last week, we started him back on the solids because he is so close to 6 mos and seems to want more food like from my plate.  Anyway, at first he seemed to be doing okay with it, but I think he might have been getting too much rice cereal because he has been having some pretty hard poop over the last day.  SOOOOO.... today he just was so hard to get down for every nap and I was getting frustrated too.  I thought since he was having the hard poop that maybe he should get a suppository, and it was successful.  But, I don't really know if that was the problem because he has been able to pass the bm even with it being harder than usual. 

Tonight, I tried to lay him for a cat nap and he just wouldn't go and I had enough so that is when we did the suppository.  Earlier, he woke after less than an hr for each nap and with all my effort it was not going to happen to get him down for the second round.  Now tonight, I know he was tired and the suppository didn't help matters.  No pun intended, but he was pooped.    After bedtime routine, I laid him down and walked out.  He never made a peep.  He did the same thing lastnight at bedtime. 

Sorry to ramble, but I am just starting to get really frustrated here.  Things are better in some ways, but worse in others.  Last night for instance, he woke at 2am-ish and it took 20 minutes to get him back down.  That wasn't really bad considering the night before was an hr and a half.  However, he slept until 715 this morning and I had to wake him up.  I know now that he can go to bed and sleep through.  It is just a matter of convincing him. 

I am wondering if he would be better to stay up a little longer too. Like maybe around 2 1/2 hrs instead of 2 because when I laid him down at 2 he was just a mess (and has been) with the flighty crazy arms and legs.  I have found that it doesn't matter if he is overtired or undertired for that to happen.  Tonight, it wasn't even a question.  He just went to sleep. 

Ugh.  Sorry to throw up (figuratively) on you, but I am just a bit confused.  Time for a glass of wine!
-Lena

[Missy Lou]

my lo has a super sensitive stomach also and is on alimentum.  we started with pears.  and she ate that for 2 weeks before we moved onto acorn squash.  pear juice was what her doc recommended when she's constipated so i thought they would be easy for her to digest.  she hasn't had any problems with them.  i never gave her rice cereal.  i use a little to thicken up the pureed baby food i make but that's it.  it upset her stomach so much so i never gave it to her plain.

it's hard to tell from this post whether the stomach problems are causing the night wakings and nap problems.  i know that can certainly be a big reason.

when you say you tried to get him back down, i assume you've tried wake to sleep.  have you read up on pu/pd on that board?  i'm not really an expert on it but the moderators on that board have a great FAQ section.

please always post here even if it's just to vent.  we all need to do that to keep sane sometimes.
melissa