Nap extension difficulties

[yorkshire]

Hello
I have been ever so pleased generally by how well the implementation of BW methods has gone with my 8m ds who until a few weeks ago always bf'd to sleep and fed all night.  But I'm now having a bit of difficulty with naps.

Although he goes down very well at the beginning, often he wakes after 30 or 40 mins.  At first pupd worked - eventually - to get him back to sleep.  Then he started sleeping past an hour most of the time anyway and seemed refreshed so I left him to his natural rhythm.  Now though he is often waking in the afternoon after 30 or 40 mins and I have been doing pupd when this happens but now it doesn't seem to work to get him back to sleep.  He is stronger now and more aware and he cries and fights until I get him up for his feed.  It hasn't got him back to sleep once recently.  The last two days after the crying and then the BF he has fallen asleep in my arms.  I am worried I have slipped into something bad as I let him sleep for another 40 mins in my arms, knowing how tired he was after not napping long and crying during pupd.  I am worried it could be teething pain.  I have tried giving him paracetamol, teething gel but still he doesn't go back to sleep once he has woken from a nap.  Not sure what to do.

Any advice gratefully received.  So good to have the boards back.

[*Natasha*]

Could you post your routine?

[yorkshire]

Our routine varies according to when ds wakes up in the morning (we are also having early risings sometimes)
but roughly:

6.15 Wake
6.45 BF
7.30 Breakfast - oats, fruit and formula milk
8.45ish Nap (can last between 30 - 90 mins)
10 ish BF
12 Lunch - meat/fish and veggies
12.30/1ish Nap (often only lasting 40 mins but sometimes goes 1.5 hours)
2.30ish BF
5 Tea - fruit and rice
6 BF
6.30 Bath
7 Bed

He is 8 months.  Possibly teething (red cheeks, bit irritable, nappy rash)

Today he woke up at 5.15.  We left him in his cot for half an hour but he was not going back to sleep, or really crying but seemed hungry/thirsty - fed him at 6am and all naps/feedings have been adjusted today accordingly.  Now he has woken again after 35 mins of afternoon nap.  A hard mantra cry - what to do??

Must go...

[yorkshire]

Having said - too soon - that nights were going well (he has been sleeping through since I started pupd and EASY a couple of months ago) tonight he woke at 9pm and 10pm.  Having been lucky so far not to have to deal with much night waking since I started BW stuff, I am a bit nervous to know what to do.  I left him until he gave a real cry then went straight in.  I tried to settle him in the cot by holding his knees gently and stroking his legs a bit (this is what has worked in the past) but he was really crying so I picked him up.  He was putting his hands to his head and a bit on his ears so I wondered if he had a pain.  I offered him some water, checked his nappy - still crying a lot.  I put some teetha gel on his gums, this quietened him.  I tried to offer some baby paracetamol but he wouldn't have it - cried and arched back.  I gave him some herbal teething powder.  Re-read the story we had done at bedtime and put him in his cot and said goodnight.  He mantra'd for a while then went to sleep.  When he woke at 10 again screaming as if in pain, he still would n't take the paracetamol.  This time he took some water.  I then held him until he calmed and began to get sleepy.  I put him into the cot sleepy and then stayed with my hands on his knees till he was asleep.  I know I am not doing pupd as advised - I am concerned that he may be in some kind of pain and I am finding that pupd seems to be making him more upset now whereas when he was 6 months it fairly rapidly seemed to calm him.  Am I slipping into bad ways or is it ok what I am doing? 
Sorry for all the detail but thought it might help.
Thanks.

[Caroline-Charlies Mummy]

Hello,

I would think that with a problem like this, ie no probs getting to sleep, but wakes up after 35-40 mins, your best bet is wake-to-sleep, rather than pu/pd. Waking, and then going back to sleep after a lot of crying is a bit of a disturbed nap, and with wake-to-sleep, you try and avoid the waking in the first place.

If you don't know what it is, there's a great section in our FAQs section (at the top of the Naps forum). If you have any problems with that, let us know.

If you really do think he's in pain, then you're right not to use pu/pd for the time being - it's a sleep training tool which should only be used when all the circumstances are right to do so.

he woke at 10 again screaming as if in pain, he still would n't take the paracetamol.  This time he took some water.  I then held him until he calmed and began to get sleepy.  I put him into the cot sleepy and then stayed with my hands on his knees till he was asleep. 

This sounds great to me, especially if you suspect he may be in pain. He's still falling asleep in the cot, not in your arms or on your breast, and that's what you're aiming for.

[yorkshire]

So pleased to get your thoughts.
I tried w2s in the early days of starting BW approach and was really pleased with how it seemed to work most of the time.  Now that his naps are so erratic - sometimes 30 mins, quite often 50-60 mins - I feel scared to do it for fear of waking him up even earlier than he would have already.  But as I know it can work, I should really make myself try again.  Thanks for the prompt.
It has turned out that he has fallen ill with his first cold so now I know he is not well.  He has been waking once or twice during the night and up for an hour or two.  I have breastfed him after being unable to soothe him back to sleep in his cot or calm him in my arms.  Then putting him back in his cot sleepy/grumpy and holding his legs till asleep.  I'm really hoping I won't have trained him to wake for food once his cold is over?  If so, will I have to start the whole sleep training thing again from scratch once he is better? 
I fed him partly to calm him but also because I thought BM would help him get better - fluid and antibodies.  Or am I just finding justifications for APing?
Many thanks.

[Caroline-Charlies Mummy]

I'm inclined to agree with you, especially about the breastmilk helping him to get better. I often 'resort' to APing when my ds is ill, I just don't think it's the time to implement sleep training. Just think of the things you do to make yourself feel better when you're ill - it's all about comforting yourself.

It may set back your training, you're right, but it won't be anything irredeemable, it'll just take a little while longer and be a bit harder to do.

Having said that, I think you could still give wake-to-sleep a chance, it may even help as it should cut down on the amount of crying, which often makes a cold worse.

HTH, keep coming back here for support

[yorkshire]

Thanks.  He is starting to get better and has resumed sleeping through the night which is a relief though waking early around 5.45 or 6.

I still haven't tried w2s yet - thought I would wait till he gets better as the blocked nose and cough seem to mean he is sleeping lightly and don't want to wake him and give him less sleep (as I am not doing pupd whilst he isn't well).  But my question now is:

He seems to be sleeping a long nap in the morning (today it is 2 hours - often 1.5 hours) and then only doing 30 or 40 mins in the afternoon.  Do you think I need to wake him from his morning sleep to encourage him to sleep longer in the afternoon?  Or is it ok to just make sure he gets his 2.5 - 3 hours day sleep in total whenever?  I'm not sure when the transition from 2 to 1 naps happens but I was just thinking ahead slightly and wondered if he gets into a habit of long morning sleep and short afternoon sleep it might be harder to make the transition.  But maybe that is a long way off yet (he is 8 months now).

One other reason maybe I should try to get the afternoon nap longer is that he is very tired anf falling asleep at last feed. 

[Layla]

Hi there, sorry to budge in but I think 8 months is a little too young for the transition as most start to transition from about 12months (mine went to 1 nap at 16 months). I would wake up earlier from the am nap to encourange a longer pm nap. The total amount of naps matters but its better if they have a decent pm nap to get them going until bedtime. If he has a shorter pm nap, he will get overtired by bedtime, which in turn leads to night wakings and early morning wake up calls. With dd1, whenever naps would go wonky (and they did as well at about the 9month mark), she would have a very long am nap and short pm nap. I think the long am nap was more or less making up from having crappy night sleep so I started putting her to bed earlier for the night, which in turn resulted in her taking a shorter am nap. If she would have a short pm nap, she would be going to bed for the night at around 6ish. It sounds early but it might give your lo a chance to catch up on sleep and allow him to be rested enough to take a decent am/pm nap. When things sorted out, she went to her usual 6.30/7pm bedtime.

HTH
Layla

[yorkshire]

Thanks for the interjection.  I'm not planning to do the 2 to 1 transition yet (I still need both naps never mind ds!).  I hate waking him from naps but I see maybe I do need to do that in the monrings and he does seem ready to go to bed earlier than 7pm - I worry that this will mean even earlier wake ups but I know BW experience is contrary to this.  I feed him before his bath however so if I put him to bed at 6 or 6.30 his last BF would be around 5.30 which then has an impact backwards on time of tea and afternoon BF.  Also would a 5.30 BF get him through till 6am + the next morning?  Ahh - feeling a bit confused.