Knows the wind down routine and hates it??!!

[ShellyNathanTaylor]

We've been struggling for several weeks trying to get LO on to an EASy routine, its starting to come together but now it seems like he hates his room. 

We're looking into whether or not he has reflux (has a lot of symptoms).  Hes also textbook/touchy/spirited so we've spent alot of time learning how to get this LO to sleep (i.e. catch the sleep window, half swaddling, taking away anything distracing in his room, dark room, stomach sleeping, etc).  Anyways, when I saw his sleepy cues (either yawning or after 1 hr to 1hr 15 mins) we would start the wind down (up to room, lullabies, swaddle and then sitting in the chair, sometimes shh/pat, sometimes not).  this was working well for a couple weeks, then we really started struggling with naps and now we have to almost put him to sleep in places other than his room.  Hes now 11 weeks. 

Now, I try and start the routine but as soon as he gets into his room he freaks out and starts crying, even when we put him on our shoulder or lay him in our arms he'll start crying now.  I'm not sure if this could all be due to the reflux or that he just doesn't want to go to sleep, could he be scared of his room??  He used to love being held especially when winding down, now he prefers to be in his swing.  I now have him in his swing until his eyes start nodding off, then I can take him to his crib and he'll fall asleep but even then sometimes he'll wake right up once he gets to his room.  Once he does fall asleep in his crib hes fine. 

We've been trying to do other activities (i.e. feed, play time, diaper changes) in his room more often which he is fine with, its just as soon as we start to try and get his to sleep that he freaks out. 

Any thoughts/ideas??

Shelly

[Scrapbooker]

Our 14 week DD has been crying before bedtimes since as close to both as I can remember.  We noticed the same thing about her crying when we enter the room.  She knows our routine so well that when I pick her up at the end of play time she 'll sometimes start crying on the way to the room.  We get points for consistency don't we  ?  Anyway, we've asked everyone we can think of and everyone said the same thing that she is "blowing off steam" as some babies do before sleep.  Reading your post sounds a lot like our DD.  I could not find anyone who said that their lo did this and now doesn't, but there was one other person going through the same thing.  Now, I just expect the crying and keep her still (no patting or shhing even) as she is trying to shut out all other stuff (noise/stim) and I just hold her gently through the crying and put her in her crib after she is really settled-sometimes just asleep (and she wakes up upon laying down in the crib and I pat/sh or not-whatever is needed).  The crying has decreased in number of minutes over time-once we stopped trying to "make her happy" and let her cry a little to settle herself.  It' not CIO because we are holding her-another mom kept her in the crib but comforted her while she cried.  Either way is good, I guess.  She'll cry if I hold her or put her down or whatever.  She does have reflux and once on medicine got much better the rest of the day but still cries before sleeping.  So, I'm guessing she'll grow out of it at some point, but we have come to expect it and she goes to sleep much faster now.  It lasts longer when she's over/undertired or overstimulated but it is always a couple of minutes at least.  She doesn't cry if we put her in the swing, but she does once we take her out so it only seems to delay the crying. I didn't notice the pattern until we got her on the medicine and noticed that she was so happy the rest of the day and cried only before bed.  She's on a good routine otherwise.  This may not be your baby, but I thought I'd give you my story in case it coincides with yours.  Good Luck!!  Hang in there!!

[becky1969]

We had this happen right around 4 months. In our case, it was because he wasn't tired enough for bed. He knew our wind down really well, so once I started it, it was like he was saying "Hey, I'm not sleepy! Cut it out!". So, we increased A time by about 30 minutes (he was long overdue for an increase!), and he magically started sleeping well again.

You might post your routine, and that will help mods and others figure out if it is an A time issue, or something else.

HTH!

[becky1969]

I just realized your LO is approaching the magical 12 week mark. At this point, a lot of babies are ready to start transitioning to a 3.5-4 hour EASY, which means increasing A time and lengthening time between feeds (you'll also drop a nap). YOu may be entering this phase, which is a common stumbling block for most babies. You may also find that you'll have to "re-teach" independent sleep with either nap lenthening techniques or WTS. They have a REM/non-REM change around this point, which seems to make it more difficult for them to put themselves back to sleep once they come out of a sleep cycle.

Again, posting your routine will help figure out what the issue is. Good luck!

[ShellyNathanTaylor]

Hi Becky, we are on a 3.5hr easy already!! So hopefully that may help a bit!! Its taken us this long to finally get on anything that even closely resembles one!!  Anyways, our "good" days look like this. 

E - 7:30
A -
S- 8:30 - 9:00 (2hrs)

E-  11:00
A -
S  12-12:30 (2hrs)

E  2:30
A
S - 4 (sometimes 1-2hrs, other times he just cat naps on and off).  Definatly has a better evening if he sleeps longer. 

E - 6:00
A
S usually doesnt sleep here, may have a cat nap

E 8:00
bedtime- 8:30

May wake around 11 for another feed, then sleeps until morning. 

He naps for 2 hrs when he goes down... we do still struggle with naps in the day so quite often he doesnt get this much. 

I must say that we've finally gotten his bedtime to 8:30 over the past couple days!! Usually its 9-10:30!! 

We've been able to get him to bed earlier because of the good naps he's been having.  Of course today he's hardly slept at all and I tried to sit it out with him in his room, he freaked out then fell asleep but only for 45 mins.  Now hes up in his swing cause he wasnt having shh/pat or anything else I did to try and get him back down. 

How long should he be napping for now?? and which nap do you typically drop??

When timing nap lenghts, do we start from after the 20 mins of "falling asleep" are up?? Often I really cant tell when this happens and I've spent many naps watching him!!  So I cant figure out at what time I'd do a W2S!!!  I do think i need to do this however because with almost every morning nap he's up at around 45 mins (from the time he starts falling asleep) but will sleep longer if I can get him back to sleep. 

Shelly

[becky1969]

That 45 minute wake-up is totally normal - he's having trouble transitioning between sleep cycles. I found, when Owen went through that, that the most effective technique was holding him through the jolts. While your baby comes fully awake at 45 minutes, there's probably several minutes before that where he's sort of starts stirring, maybe even fussing a bit. When he starts doing that, you gently hold down his arms or legs so that he can transition into the next sleep cycle. I worried that I would become a prop when I did that, but after 3 days, he started transitioning on his own! I wouldn't hear him stir at all after a week.

It looks like you are having 1-1.5 hours in awake time? It may be time to increase a little to 1.5-1.75. I think I'll let a nap moderator decide that for sure. But it could be that some of your 45 minute jolting is due to not being tired enough. That would explain the freak out going into the bedroom. You could try keeping up for 10 minutes and just see how that goes.

Sorry! My LO needs to be put down now, so I'll check back later.

[ShellyNathanTaylor]

Would you try and increase nap time even if he's yawning? ... sometimes hes falling asleep in the swing at 1-1.5hrs could it still be that he's not tired??  What confuses me is that he's tired and falling asleep and then we get him into his room and he freaks out and wakes back up again. 

shelly

[meltown]

Shelly, I have 2 suggestions for you.  I read in tracy's sleep interveiw that of the babies are not wanting to sleep do shh/patt or pu/pd for 40 min and if you don't get any result leave the room for abotu 10 minutes.   do somehting totally different, then go back in a try again.  I'm not sure how long you are waiting in there but this may help you and him.  secondly, I think he is blowing off steam as well.  I woudl suggest the sitting still thing and letting him cry a bit.  It is called a mantra cry.  I thought my son had one but he doesn't really.  the way you can tell if it is that is by listening to the cry.  if it is kind of  moniton cry that he does then it is probably that.  If the cry gets worse and wose it may not be.  I would suggest listening to it.  sit quiet, don't shh or pat, just hold him and see what happens.  listen to what he is saying and trust that you know what you are doing.  I know this can be hard because your LO is crying and you want to comfort him but it is for the better.  Are you formula or BFing?  I think for the age and the coming Growth spirt, I wouldn't change the schedual too much until after the growth spirt has happened.

What type of tests are they doing for the reflux?  he may like his swing because his head is elevated and he is sitting up.  a lot of times that is the case.  is his crib on and incline??  you way want to try that.  also try keeping him siting up for 30 min. at least after a feed.  as you hold him try to hold him on your sholder more.  these are all things we do with my son and he has reflux, not bad enough for meds, the ped wants to waituntil he is older to look at any option like that.

[Shellha]

Shelley - I could have written your post 4 or so months ago - actually I think I did post something very similar!!!

My DS used to scream as soon as we entered his room and it wouldn't stop - sometimes he would scream and scream right thru a nap and we would have to get him up, feed him and start all over again. I sympathise with you as it is completely draining for the both of you!

DS had reflux (thankfully it seems to have all but disappeared) and this was the reason for his screaming when being put to bed. Lying flat increases the pain they feel from the reflux. What we did (and is suggested by most reflux literature) was to elevate his cot by 30 degrees +. We used a big plank of wood and some of DHs gym weights and we noticed a difference almost immediately. I also fed DS upright (still do) and kept him upright for at least 20 mins afterwards - whether you let him sit on you, or in a bouncy chair etc.

I only found the 'right' wind-down routine for him when he was about 4mo. It isn't as long as suggested in the book as he gets bored very easily, so it now consists of going into his room with the lights off, laying out his sleepbag (hasn't been swaddled since 6 wks) on a pillow, placing him on the pillow (eg head elevated), dummy in, hold hands and whisper quietly, nods off, straight into bed. Sometimes I miss him going to sleep (it is so dark in there) and I transfer him into bed without a problem.

I hope this helps. Maybe have a look at these sites - I found them helpful in diagnosing DS with his silent reflux
 
http://www.infantrefluxdisease.com/

http://www.cryingoverspiltmilk.co.nz/

Good luck - it does get better I promise :-)

Shell x

[ShellyNathanTaylor]

We dont sit in his room for longer than about 40-50 mins now, if it goes on that long we'll go downstairs, usually put him in his swing or try feeding him again.  Somtimes works, sometimes not.  This is especially true in the evenings so rather than fight him, we just sit downstairs and do quiet play until he looks like he's ready to try again, he usually goes down much easier at this point. 


Yesterday and today I've just sat with him during his cries.  Yesterday he had a major freak out then finally crashed, today he lasted only about 3mins then was out like a light!! today he had what I would call his mantra cry, it did escalate a but but sounds more like hes talking/whining then crying.  He uses this at night to settle himself down and we rarely have to go into his room anymore (yay!!).  Meltown you are right that it was hard to sit through the crying,  I felt like I was causing it and just wanted to make him more comfortable.  Thinking about the fact that he's just blowing off steam totally changed my perspecitve and it was soo much easier to get through.  I think in the past I would have been walking, singing, etc and probably working him up even more when he was winding himself down and doing the work on his own!!  He starts to fuss even in the swing now, rather than running to him, i let him cry and after just a couple minutes he settles down... but what a tough thing to do. 

We are still struggling with waking after 45 mins with the naps, today he freaked out but I was able to settle him again (took about 7 mins though and I had to lift him out of hte crib). It seems I get there too late... still working on this!!

We are on formula now (was BF for 2 1/2 months).  I think that hes gone through his growth spurt already (well, how long do they last?).  He all of a sudden went from 3-4 oz to 6 plus per feed (literally overnight) plus he had a day and night where it seemed he couldnt sleep enough (of course that didnt last long!!). 

Today he was up for 1 hr 30 mins and settled after about 1 hr 45mins.   Do you try and increase A time even if you see sleep signs and/or they are falling asleep in the swing?  I think he may be at his limit because just a week or two ago he was sleeping after 1hr -1 hr 15 mins. 

We see the doctor next week re. the reflux.  I'm looking forward to having some kind of answers, either it is reflux and we deal with it or its not and we deal with it!!  We havent elevated the bed... not sure why because we do all the other recommendations... I should get on that. 

Thank you for all your feedback so far, I'll keep you posted!

Shelly

[meltown]

Shelly,
I'm glad your fining some relief.  I would definatly elivate the crib.  We just rolled up a blanket and put it under the mattress on the side his head is on.  he almost always will squirm down do he is lying across the mattress  but it's ok because he is usually settled by then.  It helped my son so much with how long it took him to get settled though. 

I would let activity time be done when he is ready for it ot be done.  If you start wind down at 1 hour 15 minutes then he would be asleep after 1 1/2 hours so I think that is a sufficient amount of time for his age.  just be sure you are watching his signs.  you know your son and what he can handle.