I need help!

[Millie2]

DD is just turned 2 and DS is 4 months.  I am having a terrible time with DS's sleeping especially at night and really need some tips on what I can do.  A "good" day for us at the moment is:

4am - One or both of them wakes up!  DS often just wants a feed and then will either go back to sleep or will chatter and squeal for up to 1.5 hours.  This of course wakes DD!  She will not settle unless I get into her bed with her.  Sometimes even that doesn't help her get back to sleep so she is awake from then on!!

6.30 - if they have both gone back to sleep then they wake up around now. 

7am - I feed DS (he's fully breastfed)

7.30 - DS is getting cranky and wants to go back to sleep but I try to keep him up for a bit longer.

8-8.30 - DS goes back to bed.  He usually settles to sleep by himself and quite quickly.

9-9.30 - DS wakes.  He only ever has about 45-60 minutes sleep in the morning.

10-10.30 - I feed DS.  I'm trying to stretch out the time between his feeds but he doesn't like it!

11-12 - DS goes back to bed sometime during this period depending on when he woke up.  He is usually able to stay up for about 2 hours during this awake time.  DD also goes to bed at 12.

12- 1pm - DS wakes exactly one hour after going to bed and I get to shush/pat for 30-40 minutes (with him catnapping for 10 minutes or so in between) until he goes into a deep sleep.

2pm - both wake up.  I feed DS. 

3pm - DS has solids.  He's a big boy (8.08kg) and very hungry so he started solids early. 

4pm - DS goes back to bed.

4.45 - DS is up. 

5.30 - we have dinner.  DS gets all cranky because he isn't getting any!!  Sometimes he has a feed before our dinner if he is very grumpy otherwise its after the bath which is always right after dinner (by 6pm).  If he feeds before our dinner then he has a top up before going to bed.

7pm - DS goes to bed.  He settles immediately by himself. 

7.30pm - DD goes to bed.  She screams and cries and then settles and talks for up to an hour!!!  Sometimes she wakes DS who then takes 30 minutes or so to resettle!

11.30-12.30 - DS wakes up for a feed.  I've tried doing a dreamfeed but he was still waking at 1.30 for a feed so I gave up on it.

Then we're back to the 4am wake up and the cycle starts again.  Its been about a month of 4am starts for us and DH and I are exhausted.  I'm sure DS doesn't need feeding so much in the night - surely he can go more than 5 hours between feeds at his age and size!!  So how do I sort the baby out?  I really do need him to be in a better routine so that we can then concentrate on getting DD back into a better pattern as well (she used to be a brilliant sleeper!).

[*Mona*]

hi
sorry you're having hard time with your LOs
I think you could aim for the routine below:

6.30 - wake up
7am - feed
8.30 - nap
9.30/10 - wake up
10.30 - feed
11:30-12 - nap
1/1:30pm - wake up
2pm - feed
3pm - solids. 
4pm - catnap
4.45 - wake up
5:15 - feed [1/2 of his usual portion]
5.30 - you have dinner. 
6:30 - feed [3/4 of ususal portion]
7pm - sleep
7.30pm - DD goes to bed.  She screams and cries and then settles and talks for up to an hour!!!  Sometimes she wakes DS who then takes 30 minutes or so to resettle! [what is her bedtime routine?]
10:30 - DF
4am wake up- try NOT feeding him, give him sth to drink [water, herbal tea, dilluted milk but very dilluted] and pat/shush him back to sleep.

does he take paci? how much formula do you give him at one feed? what kind of solids have you started giving him?

I suggest you reintroduce DF and do not feed him at 1am if he wakes up. drink, paci, pat/shush back to sleep. he is a big boy and he shouldn't be eating that often at night.

hth
Monika

[Millie2]

Hi Monika

Thanks for your reply.  I've written down your suggested routine and we'll certainly give it a go!

In answer to your questions:

DD's bedtime routine has always been dinner, bath, milk, teeth, 3 stories, kisses and bed.  She used to settle easily but in recent months (since DS arrived) has become a right terror.  I don't mind her talking but its the crying and screaming that gets me.  We now leave the door open and a light on for her and some nights she's fine but others are a complete pain.

DS doesn't have a pacifier but he's a thumb sucker.  If I roll him over onto his left side his thumb goes in and he quietens down but not always for long!  He also likes to rub silky fabrics so I give him his blankie and that helps him too.  He's fully breastfed so I have no idea how much he actually drinks but he's a quick feeder - 10 minutes max and only ever one breast per feed.  He gets a lot of wind so needs to burp during his feeds and then goes all stiff and cries if I offer the other breast or even the same one after that.

As to solids he's been having baby rice and just recently I've added some fruit - either pears or apple.  He loves his food and eagerly grabs at the spoon.  In fact, I think he'd like more than one meal a day but I'm just not that keen to go too fast with it yet.

Last night he woke at 10.15pm so I shush/patted until he went back to sleep.  Then he slept till 2.15 so I fed him and he went back to sleep immediately.  He was only seriously swallowing for about 4 minutes though and the rest of the time was just comfort sucking so I think he may have settled with just water.  I'll try that tonight.  Anyway, then he woke at 4am on the dot!  I knew there was no way he was hungry again so I just left him talking away until 4.45am when it turned to crying so I had to settle him to avoid waking DD.  It got to 5.30 and his crying was getting worse so I fed him and then it took till 6.15 before he went back to sleep (for 30 minutes!!). 

If I'm not going to feed him at 4am should I try to resettle him straight away or should I let him talk it out for as long as he needs to?  Also, should I try wake to sleep as his wake up is always 4-4.30 and is obviously a bit of a habit now?

[*Mona*]

hi

as for your DD I don't have much of advise as my dd is just 11 months now but maybe you could get some more support at sleeping for toddlers board: https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?board=34.0
it looks thou as her sleep problems are related with the 'arrival' of your DS so maybe it's how she's crying for more attention? AND maybe you could try moving her bedtime to 8pm or so to see if it helps her fall asleep easier?

anyway, as for your DS, I think you could let him 'talk' for a moment when he wakes at 4am and see if he manages to resettle himself. if not, try settling him without feeding. AND W2S is a very good idea if he's waking around the same time every night.

feeding- do you offer him one or both breasts at each feed? if both, try offering one before your diner and one before bed or if you see he's still hungry, one before and both after.
if he's sucking hard for 5 or so minutes only it may mean he's an efficient eater which i personally think is great as you don't have to spend half a day feeding him [my dd was a very efficient eater too].

keep us posted
Monika

[Millie2]

Hi again!

Thank you for your help!

I think last night was worse again!  He woke at 9.30 so I fed him then because I didn't think I'd be able to stay awake until 10.30 for the dreamfeed.  He settled back to sleep easily but woke at 2am.  I tried to get him back to sleep without a feed and he would quieten down for awhile but he wouldn't actually drop off to sleep and after an hour I was getting frustrated and angry so I gave in and fed him.  It took another hour for him to finally go to sleep and by then I was just furious and had to leave him in bed talking rather than shush/pat him as I didn't want to touch him!  How long should I spend trying to settle him?  Should I have kept going?

When he feeds he usually only has one breast.  He feeds hard and fast then needs a burp (he squirms and then squeals) and after that will not go back to that breast or take the other one.  Occasionally if I leave him for 10-15 minutes he'll have another go but not often.  It is good that it doesn't take long but I do wonder if he is snacking as he gets very grumpy waiting for his feeds.