Routine/nap problem for 8 month old DD

[Scrapbooker]

From Scrapbooker:
Also, am still having trouble with nap routine during day (or lack thereof) as she's going to bed later and having short naps (35-40"), I assume overtired.  So she still needs the catnap as her first nap is so early from decreased night sleep and sometimes he wakes at 5:30 AM or so which really messes things up.  But, (knock on wood) she sleeps through the night, so I am not having as much trouble as she is.  If she were happy, I'd let her nap as little as she wanted, but she doesn't seem well rested during the day.  Also, she may be teething-that darn thing just won't seem to come through the gum (it has "almost" for over a week now)-so she may be having problems there too.  But, that certainly wouldn't make her play in bed  .

From Stacy:
Honestly my gut says shes napping less and less night sleep cause she needs to drop to two naps. That cat nap drops for most before  now.  Some babies you have to just push them out into appropriate awake times or you get in this less night sleep, too early first nap, all short naps-trap

So my advice is push out her awake time with ALOT Of cuddles, walks etc. Dont put her down before 2.5 hours awake first nap and then try and do more for second  nap.. if she wakes too early from a nap, try like you know what to get her back to sleep.  It will be rocky but she will adjust quick. Just try and get her to 2.5 hours and then add time from there as you can every day or so. 

The putting to sleep, way you are is fine.  You always want to attempt soothing.  You are not letting her cio, she isnt alone, Cio is desperate screaming crying ALONE, not wh en mommy is there.  Shes just wo rking it out and trying to see past the confusion. 

If you end up with two n aps and too long to bedtime just try and squeeze in the cat nap somewhere for ju st long enough to get to a normal bedtime. Even just 10 mins!

From Scrapbboker:
thanks for reply.  HOw long should I try to get her back to sleep before giving up?  I've only been successful at putting her back to sleep (ever) when it was the 2nd 45 (or less) minute nap in a row.  Should I try W2S to help transition her to the new schedule?


From Stacy:
Wake to sleep doesnt work when awake times are too short or too long. You will have alot greater success getting her back to sleep if shes up the correct amounts for her age. Personally I wouldnt be g iving up in less then 45 mins. I really never gave up if i KNEW kaleb was up long enough and truly was tired

Pretty sure most of your issues are from wrong routine, too sh ort awake times, fix that and I bet alot i mproves.  You should be on 3hour awake times give or take, so start at 2.5 and work up

From Scrapbooker:
thanks.  She does well wiht over 3 hours if she has a good first nap and can do 2 1/2 hors for first A time if she has good night sleep.  But, if not, the cycle perpetuates itself.  I'll just try to keep her up tomorrow AM.  I hoep the tooth comes in soon.  She had 2 hours then 3+ and 3+ and 3+ A times today and never slept even 45 minutes.  She slept 1'40" total and took 55 minutes to fall asleep for bedtime.  Wish me luck.  Thanks for all the advice!!

From Scrapbooker:
OK, well, I reread the my previous post and I said she could do 2 1/2 hours 1st A time if had enough night sleep-correction, this only happened once 2 weeks ago.

Anyway, this is how today's going so far.  She went to sleep at 7:50PM (was in bed at 6:55) last night and awoke at 5:25 this AM-that made it 11'15" for the whole 24 hour period.  My conclusion (even though I had originally planned to give her a long A time this AM) was that she must be overtired at least by now.  So, I got her up at 5:25 and played until time to feed at 6AM, then tried to put her to sleep again.  She fell asleep at 6:28 AM and slept for 2'25"-this is the longets she's slept in a long time.  I know that this is basically an extension of her night sleep, but wanted to get her some sleep.  Anyway, so when I woke her up I figured she could probably do at least 3 hours A time, right?.  She was an absolute joy all 2 1/2 hours.  Well, just after 2 1/2 hours she started to rub her eyes while playing.  I was shocked and thought she can't be tired already and I wasn't prepared for this and had her room in shambles (cleaning out closet while she played on floor).  So, I cleaned up and brought her out front to play calmly to watch her for further cues.  By, 2'45-50" she was rubbing her eyes like crazy and getting fussy.  So, I said, well, let's see what happens.  So, I got her to sleep in about 10 minutes-at about 3 hour mark.  She woke up in 1/2 hour crying some.  So, I went and saw to her-I was prepared to do PU/PD or whatever needed (besides AP) to get her back to sleep because 1/2 hour nap is just silly.  So, I sat there in my chair for 45 minutes while she played in her crib with an occasional whine/cry which stopped when I merely spoke most of the time.  There definitely was no sleeping.  So, I gave aup and we went out to play.  We went outside, did active things, etc.  Then nearing 3 hours A time again (almost 3:00), she got a little fussy but did no eye rubbing.  It was time for BFing so we did and I figured I should try bed now due to so late in PM.  She went to sleep in about 7 minutes.  I wanted to see what would happen at the 30" mark as that seems to be when she has the most trouble lately so I went in after 25".  I watched her, at 30" she kicked and turned on side and opened eyes, but didn't really wake up.  I put my hand on her side/back and kept it there for 10".  She did the jolt thing a couple more times with eyes open, but closed them again.  I wasn't sure if I wanted her to sleep too much longer as it was about 4:10PM, but wanted to see what she'd do.  Well, it's been 45" now and she's still asleep.  I don't kow what to do for bedtime if she sleeps longer or should I wake her at some point-maybe at 4:30 so she'll sleep tonight-not sure what to do.  Unfortunately, she has no real schedule/routine anymore except bedtime.  She keeps waking at different times during the AM just when I have the start of a routine going or I never get one going because of the short naps.  Should I just wake her at 5:30 (her earliest wakeup time usually) from now on to get her on a schedule and then worry about the early wake up time later. This has been going on too long (2-3 months) to call it a blip and I feel bad for her and never know when to put her to nap, etc.  I feel like I can't really know what her A times are supposed to be because the circumstances surrounding them is just different.  Again, maybe this should be on another board, huh?   I'll tranfer this one to the nap board.

(sorry so long)

Laura

[KathrynK]

Hi Laura
sorry you are having trouble, let's see what we can suggest to help. First off, here's a hug for you 
I think the main aim is to get back into a decent routine asap as Stacy said. At 8 months our routine looked like this:
7am wake
10am nap
11.30am wake
2.30pm nap
4pm wake
7pm bed
I think this is what you should be aiming for, it's fairly typical for a lo of that age.
As to how you get there, well.......
From your last post, it looked like your dd could sleep for longer than 45 minutes when you stretch her A times to 3 hrs. Well that's great news and means it's the right way to go. I have always found the best way to stretch dd's A time without her getting grumpy and overtired is to go for a walk with the stroller. We start about 15 mins before her normal nap time, and are out for about 30 mins. That way I get home about 15 mins later then her normal nap time, I put her straight down and she goes off to sleep therefore about 20 minutes later than normal. Do this for a few days in a row and she gets used to it really quickly. It's keeping her awake but nice and gently, she can just sit back and relax and watch the world go by. At 8 months she should be able to cope with longer A times without getting overtired so quickly.
You may need to do early nights for a while until she gets used to no catnap- I think it took us about 2-3 weeks of early nights. dd's usual bedtime is 7pm, we started off going to bed at 6pm, then it gradually moved later and later as her A times stretched, until she was back at 7pm. She didn't wake early during this time, as she was adding on the sleep she missed from no catnap to her night sleep - this is very common.
I think also with the early wakings the thing to do is just as you described in your last post- get her back down asap to carry on sleeping. If for example she goes back to sleep at 6/6.30am, I would get her up at 7.30 and start as you mean to go on with that day's routine.
It will take a while to see the changes reflected in her body clock I would guess, so don't get disheartened if you still get the early wakes to begin with.
hope this helps, let us know how you get on
xx

[Scrapbooker]

thanks, I tried the stroller thing this AM.  She had 10 1/2 hours of night sleep which is good for her so the A time was no problem.  She woke after 1 hour 5 mins.  I put my hand on her back through the transition time just to be sure-as this is not her normal A time.  I read in Ferber's book that the early wake ups don't usually get better if they go back to sleep within an hour or so (unless they go right back to sleep with no A time-which she won't).  They just count it as an interruption in their night sleep.  So, we'll see what happens.  When she gets good night sleep, it's not as much of an issue.  The most I can really get out her at night is 10 1/2 hours and two naps do just fine if they are full naps (doesn't need catnap-only if all naps are short).  So, we'll try the stroller thing for a while and increase A time more as we go.  We did 2 1/2 hours today.  Thanks for good advice and thoroughness and, especially the hug!!

Laura