is 25 months too old to try sleep training, yet AGAIN!

[Colesmom]

Hi girls,

ME AGAIN!  No Mari, I didn't solve his sleep issues (as you once said, when i disappear, you think i've cracked it)....just too ashamed to come back and admit defeat.

I know in my heart I need to do something.  I am in the early stages of PG, and am totally wiped.  DH is doing bedtimes, but neither of us are being consistant.  If Cole wakes in the night, I still take him on the couch

This is not good for any of us.  I am always cranky, Cole is exhausted, and even DH doesn't sleep well, because he doesn't sleep well without me there

Recent nights he's going to sleep (in our arms or in the crib with us holding hands) at 9:30pm!  and waking at 6:15-6:30!

he refuses naps at home, but if i take him in the car he crashes within 5-10 minutes so i know he needs his sleep!  He goes to sleep easily at daycare and they have to wake him after two hours and he is CRANKY!!!

I had tried Gradual withdrawl for a while, but got trapped in his room.  Then did wi/wo for a week at bedtime and was making progress then one night he just flipped out and i gave in again.  I KNOW in my heart consistency is the key to break this.

SOOOOO, whether I choose GW or wi/wo again, I am committed to do it for two weeks.  My questions are:

1) do I just deal with bedtime first and deal with NW the same as now (going on couch) seeing as i need my sleep

2) do i go cold turkey and deal with bedtime and NW the same

3) if i go for option 2, should i do wi/wo or whatever if he wakes early (5:30am).  I don't mind bedtime, i don't mind the 1am wakeup, it's the 5-5:30 wakeup that is killer for me because he's pretty rested already.

i honestly think he's just on overdrive all the time.  He's pretty well behaved...but lately, maybe it's my hormones or my mood, but it is becoming unbearable.  or maybe it's just that he's TWO now.  LOL

his schedule is as follows

6:30 wake
12:30-2:30 nap (at daycare) and will nap if we drive him to sleep on the weekends.
9:30 sleep

also to note, i was certain he was wiped last night...DH had him in his room by 8pm and he still didn't crash until 9:30.

It must be because we're in the room with him right?

gosh, please send encouragement/advice. I am so sick of this sleep thing.  It is STILL ruling my world and i've had enough.

thank you in advance everyone.

[oilerbaby]

Hi there to a fellow Canadian!  Have you ever watched "The Nanny" with nanny Jo?  She does really well with problem sleepers, right up until 4 and 5 year olds.  However, it does involve nerves of steel to deal with the crying!  She basically has the adults sitting next to the child's bed on the floor, legs crossed and not interacting with the child at all.  If they get out of bed you just put them back - never engaging in conversation with them.  I'm not sure of the timeline/nights but you gradually move yourself away from the bed (probably each night/every other night)...  I'm sorry I can't be more specific but it really is amazing how she helps families with the sleep issues.  The absolute most important part though is to stand your ground and be consistent.  Good luck and I'm sending sleep vibes your way!

[taygensmom]

Personally whatever method you choose I would do it for both the bedtime and all nightwakings, including the 5:30 AM waking. You probably don't want to hear this, but I would also do it for naps. Hey, if you're going to go for it, you might as well really go for it! I think if you address this consistently, you will se improvement much faster than if you do it only for certain wakings. Only doing it for certain wakings would also be confusing for your LO. After all, they can't tell time yet, so in their heads I dont' think they really understand why sometimes you don't take them out and to the couch and sometimes you do...

Congrats on your pregnancy. Do you have some reinforcement for the next two weeks so you can really address this and get some sleep too? Hope so as I am pregnant right now too with a little one and it really can be draining sometimes! Happy sleep vibes!

[oilerbaby]

I agree with taygensmom... consistency is the key and doing it for the night wakings and naps would really enforce this... may be tiring and hard now but when the baby is here and the issue has already been addressed you'll be every so grateful you did it right?  Congrats on both of you with your pregnancies!

[meltown]

The nanny suggestion is the same as crying it out with you sitting there so I wouldn't use it.  I have no experience with this but I want to tell you that taygensmom is right to say that you need to hit it full forse and cover everything.  if you only do it 1/2 way you will be confusing him and it will just make things worse.  I would wait for the suggestion from mari before you start anything because she knows your back ground a bit better.

[Layla]

Hi Traci,

To answer your question, no, 25 months is not too old to sleep train.

You really need to set a plan, stick it on the fridge and toilet door if you have to....  and make it for longer than 2 weeks cause it might very well take more than that. It might be 2 weeks before you see some progress and then there might be some regression (which is what I think happened last time after a week) but you really do need to stick with it.

I would do the SAME thing for ALL naps, bedtime and definitely at night. You CANNOT take him out of the room one day and not the next... its soooo confusing for him and not doing him or you any good. All that crying is a waste if you cave in a week/two later. Its extremely important to be consistent. Just think of what will be when you have the new bub... you honestly don't want to be there. Its hard dealing with a newborn in itself, let alone a newborn that needs help falling asleep as well as a toddler.

Think of your long term goal.... I've mentioned this once in another post that my dear mummy wasn't willing to keep taking me back to my bed and sure enough every single night I would come back and she would let me sleep with her. My dad was on the couch and this went on until I was 11yo  . I still have problems sleeping on my own.... don't know what it is but at 29, if I wake up at night and dh is not beside me.... I kinda panick and have to count 100 sheeps or read a book to get me sleeping again....

Good luck hon
We're all here for you!!!
Layla

[Katet]

We had some sleep issues with Liam when he was 19mo & moved to a big boy bed.

What I did was go back to basics... I still sit in his room for him to fall asleep but I sit & listen to music (usually takes 2-4 songs on a discman).

What a toddler/preschooler needs to go to sleep is the skill to relax, so what we started with was the bedtime routine we wanted & I started night 1, reading stories until he was asleep, then moved him to bed, night 2, I did it until he was drowsy, then moved him to bed & patted him to sleep... I warn you I read lots of stories 90mins worth.
Then by night (maybe 5) I could read 10mins of stories & put him in his bed & move myself to the chair & he would mostly stay... I did (& still do) go across & give the occasional Hug... I also still go back & give my almost 4yo additional hugs most nights, so don't see it as an issue.
BTW these days I come & go from his room to say goodnight to brother, go to toilet etc & plan over the next couple of weeks to try to let him go to sleep without me there.

From my experience as they get older they do cope with things being different at the start of the night & later, so as long as you keep the parts the same & consistent there, you can say take him to the couch when he wakes as long as you do it for the first wake up every night & then when you do change it you stay consistent there KWIM. I used to sleep with my eldest son on a mattress when he was teething (around 2yo)from his first wake up & he was fine with that, never expected it earlier in the night nor for naps

[*Natasha*]

Hi there to a fellow Canadian!  Have you ever watched "The Nanny" with nanny Jo?  She does really well with problem sleepers, right up until 4 and 5 year olds.  However, it does involve nerves of steel to deal with the crying!  She basically has the adults sitting next to the child's bed on the floor, legs crossed and not interacting with the child at all.  If they get out of bed you just put them back - never engaging in conversation with them.  I'm not sure of the timeline/nights but you gradually move yourself away from the bed (probably each night/every other night)...  I'm sorry I can't be more specific but it really is amazing how she helps families with the sleep issues.  The absolute most important part though is to stand your ground and be consistent.  Good luck and I'm sending sleep vibes your way!

This method is alot like GW one method you can use to teach independent sleep and what Katet described she used and what we used when DD was going through SA for bedtimes.
It isn't going to be easy but everyday will get a little easier. IF you have support from your partner then that will help alot. Also you have the support of us anytime you need it
Good luck and remember be consistant.

[mari]

Hello Traci.

Congratulations on your pregnancy, I bet you are chuffed!  

Please don't feel ashamed to come here and ask for our help, however many times it will take, we are here for you and want to help.  It took me from April 06 until October 06 to get Alex sleeping.  Duing that time I tried so many methods that the poor kid didn't know whether she was coming or going.

Well to answer all of your questions
1) do I just deal with bedtime first and deal with NW the same as now (going on couch) seeing as i need my sleep
No, as you have said, you have to be 100% consistent and that is with every part of the sleep.  You see, if he goes to sleep with WIWO then wakes, then cries and you take him down for a nice cuddle, then tomorrow he will go to sleep, wake and think, hey if I cry and yell for mum, she will take me for a nice cudle on the couch.
So for bedtime, nightwakings and naps you should do whatever sleep training that you decided to use and stick with it for all of them.


2) do i go cold turkey and deal with bedtime and NW the same
Yes, that's what I did and it worked for us.  I think that it helped not to confuse her.

3) if i go for option 2, should i do wi/wo or whatever if he wakes early (5:30am).  I don't mind bedtime, i don't mind the 1am wakeup, it's the 5-5:30 wakeup that is killer for me because he's pretty rested already.
I found all the nightwakings a killer, i was absolutely Zonked, but had decided that i was not going to be beaten, so I went to bed at 7.30pm and was ready for the nightwakings, that is the only advice that I can give with regards to the tiredness.  When you do decide to start with the sleep training, you might as well decide to give up your evenings with DH, watching TV, reading or whatever it is that you do to relax.  A small price to pay for a good nights rest
 
If you really can't cope with the 5.30 wakings then I would take it in turns to get up and start his day rather than treat it as a nightwaking as it will only confuse him.  
As for committing to 2 weeks sleep training, well I think that Layla is dead right, you have to give it longer, he isn't too old for sleep training, but old habits die hard and Cole has had a lot of sleep problems and different methods of training that he will most likely be confused (as Alex was) so you should give it at least 4 weeks.  What's the bet that you will see an improvement within 2 weeks, but you might also see a regression.  Please be more determined than ever during this spell as, in my experience, that is when they are really testing us and if we mess up here then it just won't work.

Traci, I am not going to pretend that this will be easy, it's not easy, especially as you are in your early pregnancy (I was really tired during the first 12 weeks) but if you and your DH are 100% consistent and do this for yourselves, Cole and your new baby, then you will enter your second Timester having a full night of sleep.

I think that you should go with GW for the time being and work on getting out of the room, and under no circumstances should he be taken from his bed, use whatever you can to soothe him but he must stay in his bed.  This is what I do with Alex, when she is there, she stays until morning (unless she is sick obviously) But she knows that when she is in that bed, she stays there.  I even change her there if she poohs!  I use a bedliner under her and change her pants as I know that if I get her out, I will have a devils own job getting her back in there!

We are all here for you, no matter what and will help and support you until you are so into this sleep training we will ask Laura to make you a MOD!!  

I hope this helps and that we can give you the support and help that you need here.

Hugs to you.

Mari

[mari]

Hey Traci, I have noticed that all the best sleep advisers are on this with you and supporting you.  you will get through this. 

[Colesmom]

awww girls, thank you all so much.  I am sitting here in tears because of this wonderful community.  Where would i be without my fellow BWers?

LOL Mari, I used to be a nap moderator...but Cole's sleep was so bad I didn't have time to post!  I certainly "know" what should be done, it's just so hard to follow through.  gosh, my hormones are in full force here as 2 years of frustration, anger, and disappointment in myself comes rushing out.  I'm going to sit down with DH tonight to make sure he's on board with this.  It will be hard, but we certainly deserve better than what is going on, especially Cole.

okay, now that i've had a good cry, i have to take advantage that cole is actually sleeping and take a nap myself.

I'll keep everyone up to date as best i can.

thank you everyone, from the bottom of my heart.

[yaya]

hi traci! just wanted to offer my support, I too am pg and sleep training...if i can help u know where to find me! X

[Erin M]

Hi Traci

Just like everyone else said, CONSISTENCY.  DH is almost done with his course, are you waiting until then?  It would probably be most helpful if you would break up the night (as in, you handle bedtime and wakings before 1 AM, he handles everything after that...or vice versa if you think that would work better) - and then go to bed EARLY so you'll get some sleep.   

Katie's sleep went totally haywire around the time when Allie was born - if you work on this now, you'll have something to go back to if that happens with Cole (and since that boy seems to respond to everything with sleep issues, there's a fair chance it might happen).  Also, looking ahead, we got to the point where dh would put Katie to bed totally on his own and deal with n/ws totally on his own to help with the transition when Allie was born.  That way, the first few weeks when Allie was up every few hours I only had to deal with her, while dh just dealt with Katie.  Now that both their sleep has settled down, I generally deal with both of them, but dh still goes to Katie sometimes (Allie just generally needs the boob, so that's all me).

Anyway, enough rambling....YOU CAN DO IT!