shorter nap or later bedtime?

[shannon S]

I've haven't been on here in quite a while and have a lot of catching up to do. I'm sure there is a question like this somewhere so my apologies...I just don't have time to read all the great posts tonight.

Okay.
My daughter's sleep habits have always been quite unpredictable.  She is now 23 months. I have tried a lot of different things, later bedtime, earlier bedtime, shorter nap during the day etc. and we have had some successes lately. And by that I mean I put her in the crib by 7:00 and she is asleep on her own by 8:30.  I thought a miracle had happened the other night when she was asleep before 8:00 without fuss.  Prior to sticking to this 7:00 bedtime, we had been putting her into the crib by 7:30 or 8:00 and she would not fall asleep until 9:30 or so. And yes, there were times we would rock her just to get her to sleep but also many times she was okay without it.  She is definitely a spirited child. 

For the life of me I cannot figure out if she needs more sleep or less.  She is a pretty happy child but has the occasional tantrum and fussiness like any child.

wakeup time is usually 7:00 (and we usually have to wake her).
Sometimes she is up by 6:30 on her own.
Naptime at daycare is generally 1:30.  But if dd is too tired, she won't eat and they put her in the crib by 1:00.
She will usually sleep until 3:30 but of course not always.
We stick to this naptime on the weekends.

It does seem that if dd sleeps only one hour nap on the weekend that she falls asleep quicker, on her own at night.
But this isn't consistent.  For all I know, it is the excitement of daycare that keeps her mind going during the week and not that she's had a longer nap.
Last night she slept from 8:00 to 7:00 and apparently she was so tired today they put her to nap early and she slept two hours.

Well, I'm going on and on.
Can someone please tell me if I should ask daycare to shorten her nap and keep her bedtime at 7:00.  Or let her nap the two hours and still keep the 7:00 bedtime? 
I know all kids are different but I've been struggling with this for two years almost.

One thing is for sure....dd loves her bedtime routine. Especially now that we do bath immediately after supper. And she's great for stories and asks to go into her crib.  And always seems quite tired...then starts playing away in her crib.
At some point she usually fusses or cries, and usually I go in and out a few times.  And at least 1 trip to the potty.

Any help is greatly appreciated. 
Sorry if my message is all over the place.
Shannon

[Layla]

Shannon,

If her nap ends at 3.30pm, I would say that was the reason she was taking so long falling asleep at night. I mean, between 3.30 and 9pm, thats 5.5hrs, which is the av A time for a toddler (in the morning before nap & before bedtime).....so.... if daycare are unable to put her down any earlier, I would say, let her have a 1.5hr nap (get them to wake her at 3pm so that she can fall asleep by 8.30pm (you can put her to bed at 7pm but if her nap ends at 3.30pm, thats only 3.5hrs she has been awake and she may not be tired for a 7/7.30pm bedtime). If daycare could put her down at 12.30/1pm, that would be more ideal cause then she could have 1.5hrs (nap ending at 2/2.30pm) and go to sleep more promptly at 7.30pm.

I personally would not shorten her nap any less than 1.5hrs. 1hr is really not enough for a toddler. The av is 1.5-2hrs and you might find that if her nap is down to 1hr per day, she will get overtired, you will be facing nightwakings and possibly earlier wake ups. She really needs to have a longer than 1hr nap to be refreshed for the rest of the day.

hth
Layla

[Mom to M&M]

Agree with PP - her nap time is very late considering her age and wake up time - can they do a nap at 12:30 instead? 12:30-2:30 would be ideal for a 7:30 bedtime.

[shannon S]

Thank you both.
I would agree that an earlier nap would be ideal. I just don't know how easy this is.  It's a home daycare and there are a couple of one year olds who still have a morning nap. So I think this is the reason. The little ones sleep at 9:30 and then the 2nd nap for them and 1st nap for the others is at 1:30.  She serves lunch at 12:30.
I absolutely love the daycare....I'm not sure if she can change the whole routine by a whole hour unless the little ones stop having their morning nap.  And I do feel they deserve a break while all the kids go down at the same time.  Sometimes when she won't eat lunch they put her down for nap at 1:00 but if she does eat, she is generally a slow eater.

The daycare provider is definately willing to wake her earlier, whatever I decide.  But they always tell me that dd seems so tired.  I'm not sure how the other kids get through to 1:30 but I guess most of them are older than her slightly.

You both agree that I should stick to the earlier bedtime and just let her play til she falls asleep?, and just try to change the nap a little?

Thanks for your help!
shannon.

[Carmela's Mom]

Shannon we had the same issue with my daughter when she was in home daycare as a baby.  At 5 months old, they wanted her to nap at 12-2! She was on 3 naps at this point and it just didn't work out.  She was so overtired and cranky and ultimately I pulled her from that daycare and put her in another home daycare that would grant her two naps. 

I'm not saying to switch daycares, but I definitely agree with the PP that she needs an earlier nap.  My daughter wakes up at 6:30ish and even to this day, if I do put her in for a nap, it has to be at 12:30 or she won't nap.  It's so strange to me but its true. She's now 3 years old, but she's always been like this. 

[Mom to M&M]

Can she even move everything up by half an hour to compromise - so little ones nap at 9 and 1 and those on one nap at 1? And lunch at 12?

[Layla]

I agree with pp, you can either compromise with daycare about earlier nap time (1pm) OR let her have the 1.30pm nap time, get them to wake her at 3pm, bedtime at 8 (so she's hopefully asleep by 8.30pm) AND let her sleep in the morning (so don't wake her). That way she's getting her full nightsleep as well as the 1.5hr nap. I would say you waking her up in the morning is cutting her nights short so that would be another reason she might be looking tired all the time......

[shannon S]

Thanks again for the input!

Okay, so I spoke with our daycare provider and she has no problem waking dd by 3:00.  And as it turns out, dd is usually one of the first ones to go down lately (at around 1:00). I guess they start taking the kids for nap one at a time (between 1 and 1:30) and so I just asked that she continue to be the first to go down. I guess the only problem is that she doesn't always fall asleep right away, so they have let her sleep until 3:30 often.

Also, on the weekdays we have to be out of the house by 7:30 to get her to daycare and myself to work on time!  So we have no choice but to wake her at 7 or even 10 after at the latest. (she has breakfast at daycare) She is slow to wake up but isn't really grouchy or anything. And she loves going to daycare.

I think she had a long nap again today (likely till 3:30) and miraculously she did fall asleep by 7:45 tonight.  (was in her crib by 7:00), that's twice in the last three nights!  She has actually had more sleep than usual lately but seems to be more tired by lunch than usual.

So I don't know if this is just luck tonight with her falling asleep, if she 's just growing and tired, Or if we should have been putting her into her crib by 7:00 all along. Do you think I should continue this 7:00 bedtime even though she will nap until 3:00 ? I know two of you thought 7:30 or 8:00 makes sense with this late of a nap.

Does anyone know if spirited children generally need more sleep or less than the norm?  Just curious as I've been struggling and testing out both theories with no luck for so long!

Thanks again everyone!
shannon

[shannon S]

I just wanted to share some success with my 2 year old and her getting to sleep on her own.
It has been trial and error for 2 years!

To answer my own question (with the help of others), yes dd needs a slightly shorter nap and early bedtime.

We have had daycare waking dd from nap by 3:00 and we've been putting her in her crib by 7:00 (bathing right after supper with no playing in between) and all week, dd has been falling asleep on her own by 8:30.  This is truly amazing. She has never done this before. She plays happily for a while and then she does cry or call out once or twice. For this I have been going into her room, holding her for about a minute and whispering to her about all the people who love her. And then I tell her what she will do in the morning. She seems to really like this and often goes to sleep after this.

And I mentioned this on another post, but dd Loves her routine. And since she knows it so well, she is the one to lead us straight to bath after supper, then to stories, milk, brushing teeth, soft music, and crib.  No fight at all to get her in bath.
she is also potty trained now during the day.  Our daycare provider thinks that this is why she seems to be so much happier lately.  I personally think she is so happy because of the routine, and her sleeping better.  And I can actually relax starting at 7:00 when I put her in the crib, instead of stressing about her going to sleep!  We have not been having struggles or tantrums for a while now and I don't think it's just a coincidence!

Just wanted to share and say that there is hope for those spirited lo's who have so much trouble getting themselves to sleep.
Just might take a while, and some trial and error, to find what your lo truly needs.
Shannon

[Layla]

That's great to hear! Thanks for sharing