9 month old - need help with naps

[mum6791]

We have been having napping problems with our 9 month old.  She was taking 2 naps a day that were only 30 min each.  I realised that meant she was over tired so on Tuesday I started trying to extend her naps and put her to bed earlier.  Her schedule looked like this:

5 - 6 am up for the day, bf
7:30 solids
8:30 nap - 1 1/2 hours
10:00 bf
12:30 solids
1:30 nap - 1 hour
3:00 bf
5:15 dinner
5:30 start bedtime routine - bath, massage, stories
6:15 - 6:30 bedtime

I extended her naps by sneaking into the room after 25 min and sshing/patting when she woke up.  It worked right away and the above schedule was going well.  On friday morning she didn't need my help and slept on her own for 1 1/2 hours.

Then on friday afternoon she woke after 30 min and I couldn't resettle her.  I decided to put her to bed earlier so she was down by 5:30.  She slept until 5:30 this morning (with 4 night wakings - we are working on these too - took about 15 min to resettle at each one).

I put her down for a nap at 8:00 this morning and she woke after 30min and I couldn't resettle her.  I gave up and we put her back down at 11:45, again awake 30 min later, couldn't resettle.  She is getting so mad when I try and resettle her.  She has been so good, and now she is so grumpy.  I tried leaving her at the 11:45 nap to see if maybe me being there was making her mad, but nope she is just plain old mad.

I've been resettling with sshing/patting and pd if she stands up.

I need some advice, I'm not sure what to do!

[KathrynK]

hi there
30 min naps tend to mean overtired- sounds like this could be the case with your dd. I think she gets mad when she wakes because she desperately wants more sleep but can't get back off because she can't wind down enough due to being o/t.
At 9mo my dd could handle max A time of 3 hrs but that was afte a good 1.5hr nap. On a 30 min nap lo will need a much much shorter A time before the next nap.
Basically she needs to catch up on that lost sleep- the quickest way to do this is to keep her A time short, I would suggest perhaps max 2hrs after a 30 min nap, and get 3 naps in to the day. Does she still show you tired cues? If you see a tired cue put her straight down, even if she's only been up 1.5hrs. Give her as much opportunity as you can to sleep and she will hopefully catch up in a couple of days. It's possible the NW are caused by the o/t so you may see an improvement there too once she is back on track.
It's great that she is able to sleep longer on occasion- once the o/t has gone definitely carry on working on extending those naps and you should see some great results. Extending won't work while she is still o/t though so you need to sort that out first.
hope this all makes sense and is helpful x

[mum6791]

Thank You!  I defnitely think she is over tired - maybe has been her whole life!  How long does it normally take for lo to catch up?  I got her down for a third nap just now - took me about 35 min - then she woke up 5 min later, but took no time to get her back down.  I guess I should have tried earlier, I waited 3 hours - thanks for the advice, I was so unsure what to do after a 30 min nap.  I'm pretty sure the night wakings are from the ot.  I thought we were making great head way in getting her caught up over the last 4 days - it is so discouraging to have her take a step backwards.  I feel like she was catching up and now is adding to the deficit!

She doesn't show tired cues until way too late.  By the time she is rubbing her eyes we've waited too long. 

I'm starting to wonder if she was so exhausted she was crashing for her naps, and with my help extending wasn't a problem.  Maybe now that she is still ot but maybe not as bad she is having trouble actually putting herself to sleep - possible?  Or maybe we just lucked out for 4 days.

Do you think changing her schedule to have a max of 3 hours of A time is a worth a try?  She definitely can't go very long in the morning.  Her best A time is between the morning and afternoon nap.  I find by bedtime she seems to tired!

Should I still try and extend naps by going in at 25 min and helping her through?  And only if she totally wakes up then give up?

Thanks for all of your help!  This website is excellent.

[KathrynK]

It can take quite a few days for lo to catch up if she is severely overtired. Keep that A time really short after a 30 min nap so she doesn't get more tired. If she shows cues late on , then go by the clock. I have had to do this with my dd since she was young as her tired cues are so unreliable!
I would try max 2hr45min A time from waking to first nap- have her back in bed no more than 2hr45min after waking so she can fall asleep before getting to 3hrs. My dd was the same in that her best A time was always between the 2 naps. Altough while she is catching up on sleep I would keep this to 3 hrs too.

Maybe now that she is still ot but maybe not as bad she is having trouble actually putting herself to sleep - possible

Absolutely o/t means she will have trouble getting to sleep- the only time my dd has ever had trouble going to sleep  was when she got o/t.
I think working on extending her naps is a good idea, but if she is continuously o/t extending won't work as she will be too hyper to sleep properly. Better to shorten A times and get in more naps first and after a couple days when she is more rested then you can try to extend the naps.
let us know how you get on xx

[mum6791]

She got up from her 3rd nap at 4:10 so I was sure to have her down in her crib by 6:00.  Bedtime went much better than usual.  She took about 15 min to put herself to sleep, I had to do a few pd but is was very peaceful.  She also ate a great dinner.  Lately she has been so upset during her dinner - she would be eating but crying out at the same time.  I wasn't sure what she was trying to tell me, now I know - Mum I'm so tired, but also hungry, I don't know what to do!.

I have one question - if she has only 30 min naps and has 3 of them in a day, and I keep A time to 2 hours, that only adds up to about 10 1/2 hour daytime.  What about the other  1 1/2 hours?  Do I put her to bed earlier each night?  Do I add one more nap?  Try and get her sleeping more then 12 hours at night?  A mixture?  Hope one of her naps is longer then 30 min 

Thanks again, it was so, so, so nice to have a peaceful bedtime.  I'll definitely be keeping those A times short!

[KathrynK]

hopefully once she is not so overtired the 30 min naps will be replaced by longer naps- you can help her extend them too- so she will have more sleep during the day. Also early nights will help during this time, if she is still sleeping until her normal time in the morning. That's better than trying to squeeze in an extra nap and then causing a late bedtime.
Glad last night went well for you, let us know how today goes

[mum6791]

Today has not been so great.  She slept well last night until 3:30, but then it took 1 1/2 hours. to get her back down, just to have her up for the day 1 hour later.  I put her down for her first nap 2 hours later.  We've had to do three naps today, but the third one just wasn't happening.  We started sleep training about 1 month ago and she has improved tonnes, but today she just can't seem to settle herself at all.  I gave up on the third nap as it is almost time for dinner!  I've kept A times really short today, but things are worse.  Should I put sleep training on hold until she has caught up on sleep?  I know I can get her to sleep by rocking her, but it feels like a step backwards.

[mum6791]

Ok - to add to my above post.  We feed her dinner and did the whole bedtime routine thing and she went down great!  Only took maybe 10 min once she was in her crib.  I only had to do 2 pd's!  So confusing!  Either she wasn't tired for her nap - but I'm guessing that is not the case - or do you think we need a big wind down for naps?  Our bedtime routine is about 45 min long and includes bath, massage, stories and songs. 

Currently our nap routine is one book and one song.  Maybe I need to give her more wind down for naps?  It is all so confusing!

[KathrynK]

I think a longer wind down might help, why don't you give it a go and see how you get on? When dd was that age I used to do about 15 mins for wind down

[mum6791]

Yesterday was much better.  She slept for 1 1/4 hours for her am nap.  Her pm nap was 1 1/2 hours.  I had to help extend the pm one.  I'm not sure if I should have or not.  She woke after about 35-40 min of sleep.  Is this an overtired nap or just a short nap?  Anyhow, I extended.  It didn't help her night sleep at all.  I've already posted to the night waking board.

I do have some more nap questions.  At what point is a nap just a short nap, not the sign of overtiredness?  If the am nap is good and she is put down for the pm nap after a reasonable A time and it is only 30 min is that a sign of overtiredness?

I've been sneaking in to extend her naps.  I just put a firm hand on her if she can't settle herself.  Is that the best way, or should I let her completely wake up and do pd?

I'm guessing after our night last night we'll be having 30 min naps again

Also, do I understand correctly that if the nap is only 30 min I should not try and extend it (even if it is possible) because this isn't a good sleep?  We are better off with more naps?  Just want to make sure.

Thanks for all of your help.

[KathrynK]

hi there
sorry I haven't been here for a couple of days
In answer to your last questions, it is usually the case that a 30min nap is overtired, and a 40-45 min nap is just a short nap. With regard to extending, I've always personally found it better to extend without lo waking if poss, rather than let them wake and then do pu/pd.
how are you getting on now?