Re: Almost 5 month old night wakings

[Bryony]

Hi - I hate to highjack your post, but we are having similar issues!  So I do feel for you. I also find it really hard to know whether or not to feed my LO when she wakes at night, and would appreciate any thoughts...

She started sleeping through from 7pm to 7am at 3 months (with a DF around 10.30pm), but then a few weeks ago has started all kinds of wierd wakings. She often wakes at 10ish before her dream feed and so I tend to feed her anyway rather than try and get her back to sleep and then wake her half an hour later. She doesn't generally seem very hungry though.  Then sometimes she wakes at 2am grizzling; I usually try and settle her but she gets really cross, so I generally end up feeding her and she seems really hungry and goes straight back to sleep. If she doesnt wake at 2am she usually wakes around 4 or 5am, again grizzling, and will go back to sleep quickly if I feed her.  So I am not sure if she is hungry, or using me as a dummy!

Our routine is something like this:

7am wake and feed (although she's sometimes already awake since 6:30 or so)
9am or 9:15am nap - usually 1.5hrs
11am feed
1pm (or 2hr 15 from when she last woke) nap - usually only 45 mins (she's a real 45 minute napper - have battled this since she was 7 weeks old - she sleeps well in the morning nap but not at the afternoon nap. Occasionally sleeps longer)
3pm feed
catnap - when tired - usually around 4:30 pm or 2hrs or so since last woke
6pm feed - then top-up at 6:45pm after her bath
7pm bed
10:30pm dream feed (but she's usually awake...)

We are 100% BF

Thanks

Bryony
 

[momofclaire]

Bryon,
I split your post so that more people would be able to see it. Hope you don't mind. 

At first glance I think your little one could be a bit overtired. Those 45 min naps aren't giving her the rest she needs to be able to sleep soundly at night.   What have you done to extend naps? 

It is possible that she could need one overnight feed. She is probably about to go through a huge growth spurt that happens around 6 months. 

[Bryony]

thanks MomofClaire!

In terms of exending naps - I used to be able to extend the lunchtime nap (but never the afternoon one) when we were on 3hrly EASY by putting my hand on Katie's chest and shhing from the 35 minute mark until the 65 minute mark (it felt like I spent all my life in there!). Since we moved to 4hrly EASY at 4mo, I've not been able to extend the lunchtime nap at all. I've tried the same method, also W2S but no can do....  so have now given up as I was getting so frustrated even trying!

Yes I have wondered if she is overtired too - but not sure what I can do about it - any suggestions?

Thanks again 

Bryony

[momofclaire]

Does she seem tired at nap time?  Do you have windown routine?

I wonder if she might need a litte more or less A time.  Some babies have a pretty small window. 

[Bryony]

Actually I have just looked back at my records (yes I am sad enough to record everything!) and the night wakings problem definitely started around the time I stopped being able to extend that lunchtime nap.....

Katie sometimes seems tired before a nap, sometimes not - I try and put her down for a nap at around 2hr 15 or 2hr 20 even if she does not seem tired, with a wind-down routine starting 10-15 mins beforehand.  She settles very easily for naps and gets herself to sleep by rubbiing her head on her bedding and rubbing her muslin over her face (!). 

If I extend her A times to 2hr 30, sometimes she has a mega long nap, more often she has a 30 minuter (overtired?). If I do A times shorter than 2hr 15 she generally does 45 minutes even at the morning nap....  it does feel like she is very sensitive to the type and duration of A time but I haven't got it sussed yet!

B

[Zoey]

Hi there!

I have a few thoughts;

1) If she is waking at 630a that's when I'd start your day personally.  If she is going 630a-9/915a and doing a nice 1.5h uninterrupted nap - I wouldn't change anything there - I'd just start counting her wake time at 630am and perhaps start getting her to bed by 630/645pm.

2) I agree with MomofClaire - you may have to see if she needs 15m less or 15m more A time before this nap.  Personally I would put her in earlier for a few days and see if that helps, giving it a good five days or so to see.  Then if it's still a silly nap, try extending longer by 5m every 2 days or so.  Also, this 45m napping at 5.5m is quite developmental as well.  It will get better - the trick is to keep her from being overtired before bed while it all sorts out...

3) I see you wrote catnap when tired.  I think this may be your NW trouble.  She needs a catnap before bed, absolutely if that PM nap was only 45m.  It would seem she is overtired at bedtime and she can't settle.  I would give the catnap 2h15m after the wake up of a good PM nap, sooner if the nap was short.  I'd keep the catnap at 30m, waking if needed and then bedtime approx 1h30m after the wake up from that.

4) How much does she take at the DF?  If she is awake for it, you may consider doing it later or earlier and seeing if she will stay asleep.  My fear with giving a DF when awake is the potential for creating a habitual waking at that night - kwim?  Some babies don't benefit from the DF at all, and it just causes more NWings. 

Just my ideas!!  Good Luck!  Oh... her A times don't all have to be the same - at that age Owen's were all different lol.  I also remember days of 4 naps... the AM one was great; 1.5h then a 45m one, another 45m one and then a 30m catnap - all to keep him from being overtired at bedtime lol.  Silly kids!
Zoey

[Bryony]

Thanks Zoey, that's really really helpful.... 

About half the time Katie is already awake at 7am (it's hard to know exactly what time she wakes up as she just looks around quietly until I go and get her), about half the time I have to wake her. Will see how it goes over the next week or so before deciding whether to start our day at 6:30am every day.

In terms of the catnap - we always have a catnap, I meant that I put her in her cot / put her in the buggy (this is the only nap when I sometimes go out and about) when she seems tired. Usually about 2hr or 2hr 15 after she last woke.  On days when we have had really terrible naps we have two catnaps.  Then bedtime has been about 2hrs later - I will try putting her into bed earlier as you suggest.  In fact have tried it this evening and she seems to have settled fine...

I've aready moved the dream feed earlier, about two weeks ago (10:30pm instead of 11pm) to see if it helped but not sure that it has really. Not sure how much she takes as I am BF - she seems to enjoy sucking for up to an hour in a sleepy kind of way but no idea how much milk she takes in!

So, as much to remind myself as anything, my strategy is:

- see what happens about morning start times
- will try a shorter A time before her lunchtime nap for a week - eg 2hr 10 instead of 2hr 20 - and see if it helps
- will try putting to bed earlier, only about 1hr 30 after the catnap

not sure yet what to do about the DF.

In the meantime, what do you recommend in terms of getting her to go back to sleep if she does wake?  I usually let her grizzle and shuffle around for half an hour or an hour before going in, in the hope that she will resettle herself. Sometime she does, and sometimes the grizzling gets worse.  I then go in, and usually she starts really wailing then. I have tried shhh/pat (which has worked in the past) but now she just gets very cross. So I usually end up feeding her as I worry that she is actually hungry.  I think I am projecting my own feelings, as by this point, having been awake for an hour, I am sorely tempted to raid the biscuit tin!

I can't tell you how much I appreciate having other people to bounce this around with!

Bryony

[Zoey]

No problem at all!

You know, I still have know idea what time Owen really wakes up LOL

How is she getting to sleep for naps and nights, indep or does she need help from you to get off to sleep?  Do you wind down and put her in the crib and go out?  How are you handling the night wakings?  When you end up feeding her, does she suck and swallow for a while, or does she seem more like she is using it for comfort or playing?

Is she using a paci or anything else that could be a prop? 
 
Is her room nice and dark and are you using some white noise?  What does your wind down look like?  Are you putting her in the crib wide awake or sleepy or asleep?

Have a biscuit!  Lol  I think letting her grizzle a bit is good.  Actually, when you hear a cry or a noise, you should always stop and assess it for a few seconds.  If she isn't giving you a real cry, she probably doesn't need you, and could potentially go back off to sleep on her own - so I think that's a good plan; always going to her for a real cry.

Sorry for all the questions LOL

Zoey

[Bryony]

Heavens, don't apologise for the questions - it's really helping me! 

I also have to report that last night we had NO wakings!!  We'd had a funny day with her waking after 30 mins from an earlyish catnap (following a 45 min lunchtime nap) so as it was a nice day I'd put her in the buggy and we went for a walk in the park, figuring that if she was really tired she'd go back to sleep. She fell asleep again, half an hour after her catnap ended, and slept for 45 mins, by which time it was nearly 6pm and her bedtime is usually 7pm - so I put her in bed slightly late at around 7:30pm so it was only 1hr 30 since she woke up.....  (and I then fell asleep myself as I was exhausted after all the night wakings). DH woke me up at 11pm wondering why I had not done the DF at 10:30pm, so I did it then, and then didn't hear a peep from Katie till I woke her at 7am!!!!  I couldn't believe it. Now it was only one night so I am trying not to raise my hopes in case normal service resumes this evening, but I was soooo pleased.  Of course I'd been awake since 5am worrying as I had not heard from her and trying not to touch on my bursting boobs!

In answer to your questions:

In terms of getting to sleep for naps and nights, Katie does go to sleep independently.  We do a wind-down and she goes into her cot awake. Sometimes she is looking a bit sleepy by then, most often she's wide awake, but I leave the room and don't hear a peep from her for at least 45 mins so I assume she's slept during that time LOL.

With the night wakings, I ignore her as long as possible, but if she's been awake for ages and is sounding increasingly upset, I go in but can't get her to go back to sleep and usually end up feeding her.  I don't put the lights on, and try not to give her any more interaction than necessary. She is quite happy to be fed (!) and usually demolishes both boobs and then falls asleep on the boob - I try and wake her up a bit before putting her in her cot but sometimes she's out for the count...  so I think she IS hungry by then, but I really don't think its hunger that wakes her up in the first place, IYSWIM.

Katie doesn't use a dummy or any other prop. The only thing she has is a muslin square which she is developing a love affair with - so I put one in her cot with her and she likes to rub it on her face.

Her room is pretty dark (we have black out blinds plus black out curtains, although some light still gets in...) and we use a white noise CD for naps, but not for night-time.

Our wind-down for naps is:  walk around the house for 10 mins with Katie on my hip (Katie's favourite pastime!) singing Twinkle Twinkle Little Star and talking quietly.  then into her room, say goodbye to the sun and shut the curtains, then put our naptime music on (the white noise CD), then sit together for one more verse of Twinkle Twinkle, then into sleeping bag and cot, and put on the lullaby on her baby monitor as I leave the room.

For night time it's more based around bath, massage, story and prayers but similar ideas in terms of quietening down and minimising stimulation.

So on reflection I think I have been allowing too big a gap between catnap and bedtime - she doesn't show any tired signs until 2hr 15 or so even if she's only had a 30-45 minute nap, but I think I need to try and put her down for a catnap earlier if it's only been a short nap at lunchtime, and not have such a big gap between catnap and bedtime, by giving her two catnaps if needed.... 

Will see how it goes today!

Thanks again, I am so grateful

Bryony

[Zoey]

Lol I laughed right out loud when I read the first paragraph!  Oh that's so great about her sleeping!!  You must feel like a million bucks eh.

I think you're on the right track.  I think remembering to keep her from being overtired before bed is really important to having a good night.  I also think it's important to get baby in the crib Before you actually see sleepy signs.  So, watching her and seeing when those happen and time it so she is actually in the crib when those sleepy signs are starting to emerge most often is a great equation for sleep.  Some say when you see the signs, it's actually too late and baby is in overtired-land.  This serves 2 purposes; baby associates those sleepy feelings with being in the crib thus developing a healthy association with the crib, and it assures that you will not miss her sleep window which is quite small at this age.

Also, try to have your wind down be the last 10m of her A time.  Meaning, don't tack on 10 more mins, does that make sense?  I'm not sure if that's what you're doing but sometimes even 10m can mean the difference between overtired and not.  Like Owen showed sleepy signs after being awake for 2h20m, so I made sure I started our wind down after 2h10m so he was in the crib and ready to sleep by 2h20m.

I would use the white noise for night sleep too, but that's just my opinion.  I try to keep the sleeping situation the same for all sleeps to be consistent - I think that helps (for us).  Of course I'm 31 and use white noise to sleep so I guess I'm a bigger fan of it than most LOL.  I also think you handled the DF perfectly.  You really want to try and not have her be awake for it for reasons I mentioned before.  If 11pm is too late for you, you can do 10, or 1045ish.

It's really great that she can put herself to sleep.  Like super great!  The only other thing I may be cautious of is feeding to sleep - I say this because it can so easily become a prop.  I also think it's completely normal to have a DF and 1-2 additional feedings at that age.  I think you should always feed her if she is truly hungry, but I'd just be sure she is actually hungry and remove her from the breast when her sucking slows and she stops swallowing - just so she doesn't use that as her night-time way of getting back to sleep (prop).  Of course again that's just my opinion!

Ok that's all!  You're doing so great.  I hope today goes well - keep us all posted!!
Zoey

[Bryony]

That's really interesting about tired signs being a sign of being past it - think I had been waiting for these in general (or if I really didn't see any, putting her down for sleep at 2hr 30 - which may be a bit too long for her). I think what you say makes a lot of sense!

Yes, our wind-down time is the last 10 mins of our A time (not added on)...

In terms of the DF, I don't think I have ever (in 5.5 mo) managed to do it without her waking up.  I think lifting her out of the cot to BF always wakes her - and until recently she wouldn't take a bottle, and I struggle with pumping so giving it via a bottle isn't practical for routine use.  I think I will leave it as it is for another few weeks, by which time she should be on solids and hopefully sleeping better at night (fingers crossed) then try reducing it to one breast then dropping it. 

Last night and tonight I have also taken her off the boob when it looked like she was finished and just comfort sucking - and then distracted her and quickly put her thumb in her mouth instead when she started to cry - which seemed to work!

today the naps were even wierder than usual - even the morning nap was short, maybe after all that lovely sleep she had last night I should have extended the morning A time!!  But managed to time it so she had 4 x 45 min naps with the last one ending 1hr 45 min before bedtime and havne't heard a peep since so I assume she's asleep. Fingers crossed...!

Bryony

[momofclaire]

Sounds like things are going better. That is great.

[Zoey]

Sounds great Bryony!  I found, even now - every day is different lol.  I think taking the idea of Easy and applying it is great, but honestly I can't remember a day that was picture perfect.  You're doing great!  Also developmental things like rolling over, sitting up etc all have an effect on sleep as does teething.  I always had a 3 day rule, if something seemed wonky like a short nap, I wouldn't change any A time or anything until it happened for three days.  That way I knew it was actually something different and not just an off day.

Good Luck hun!
Zoey

[Bryony]

Hi - just wanted to post to say a massive THANKS to Zoey and momofclaire for your help!  Out of the last 4 nights, we've had no NW's for 3 of them (OK so the other one was a complete nightmare - 10pm, 2am, 4am, 5am, and 6am!!  but hey....).

I think I had suspected overtiredness was the issue, due to Katie's 45 min naps, but had struggled with how to solve it - but we've now ended up having two catnaps if her lunchtime nap is short, one mid afternoon and one late afternoon, so at least we have some kind of damage limitation even if I can't extend her short naps.

Reading other things on this board, and talking to no-BW friends, I don't think overtiredness is recognised often enough as a cause of NWs...     so thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

Katie still seems to wake up pre-empting her DF but I think we will live with this for a few more weeks as hopefully we will be able to stop the DF soon anyway once she's established on solids.

So thanks SO MUCH!!   

Bryony

[Zoey]

You're welcome   Glad to know things are better!!