Almost 4 months old and STILL only 45 minute naps and now multiple nws :(

[~*~Little Miss Sunshine~*~]

Dana - keep at it!  I know how frustrating it can be.  And listen to Bryony!!  Seriously!  As she said before, he dd had 45 minute naps from 7 weeks until 7 months, so it can be a long process.  i know it isn't easy, as I am still going through it, but just be consistent and PATIENT (I constantly say this to myself as well) and we promise it'll work out!!

[nadiaet]

Hi Dana!  I am going through the same stuff as you are-except my ds sleeps pretty well at night.  He is a terrible napper, but like you wakes happy. This is what I do.  First and foremost I try to relax. (My ds is pretty laid-back, but when I get frustrated with his naps, he can totally sense it) They all learn to nap and sleep through the night eventually.  This is my second baby on EASY and each one has been totally different. I am now trying to just go with the flow.  If he takes a 45 minute nap but wakes happy and won't go back to sleep, i get him up.  If he starts to yawn before it is time to eat I will try to put him back down. Sometimes he goes, sometimes not. Usually by the time the next feed starts he is pretty tired.  I keep him awake through the feed and then give a really short A time.  I then try to put him back down.  Usually if the day starts out with bad naps, he won't ever get a good one in there.  I just come to terms with it and take it for what it is.

If it all gets to be too much and I know he is exhausted, and I am exhausted and have totally had it, i will take him out and put him in the swing, or go for a ride in the stroller.  You should not do this every day, but when you feel totally at a loss it usually helps you feel sane again-and they usually sleep really well and catch up.  Then you can start again.  Each day is a new start.

The thing is that this is all trial and error.  No baby does it perfectly every time, and speaking from experience-they all eventually get it.  I think we are a lot alike in that we feel like our babies have to do it perfectly or else they will never get it right.  I have to constently remind myself that everything is just a phase-this too shall pass.

Now lastly-re ff.  My lo is 3 months old and weighs 16.5 lbs-big boy like yours.  This is what I do-watch for hungry cues-usually 3.5-4 hours after last feed. My lo usually takes 6oz at each feed for a total of 30-32 oz per day. (THe 2.5 x weight isn't applicable after a certain weight-that is what our Dr advised).  If I ever want to see if needs more, I put 7-8 oz in the bottle for a few feeds-if he is ready to increase his ounces he will take what he needs.  Then I know from that point on how much to make!  Hope this has helped-Sorry so long.  I had a come to Jesus meeting with myself and wanted to share my thoughts!

[pippaknight]

Hi there,
my baby (sorry haven't got the hang of all the jargon) is 4 months old next week (born 21st May).  He has never slept longer than 4 hours and his longest nap has been around 40 mins.  I'm 39 years old but look about 129!  I can't see an end to the night wakings - currently around 4 per night. I just don't know what to do. I've tried him on 3 hour easy and I just can't seem to make him do what he's supposed to do when he's supposed to do it!  I know that it is my fault, after all he's only a matter of weeks old and the guidance has to come from me.   
Let me know how the new routine goes.  (mine hates the pick up put down thing too)
Philippa

[Dana D]

Well, now I'm totally discouraged.  This whole time I've been doing BW thinking I was supposed to stay in his room and help him get to sleep.  I mean, all that really is for me is sitting beside his crib, giving the occasional pat (sometimes sh/pat) and holding him down during the jolts.  I usually stay in there for 15 minutes.  Now I feel like I have enabled him and he is not able to fall asleep without me.  Great.  I get so confused with this stuff - sometimes it seems to contradict itself. 

This morning was not a good start to me trying to extend the naps for the day - it took me an hour to get him to go to sleep and only then because he was laying on me - I figured at that point, better to have him get some sleep (and me) than to have an OT baby.  He slept for 40 minutes, stirred and then slept for about 12 minutes more until I got him up to feed.  I didn't get any sleep at all, because the whole time I was thinking about all this stuff.......

Ok, so I'm currently in his room, just put him down - he resisted about 15 minutes ago so I decided to get him back up and do some low key activity for a bit and then try again.  He' looks to be going to sleep....I'm sitting next to his crib but I'm kind of backed away from it further than normal and I'm only going to intervene if I feel like he really needs it.  How does that sound? 

Sorry, I just have no faith in myself anymore (I know I feel like a big cry baby about this whole thing, I mean, c'mon we've all been through this, so I should stop feeling sorry for myself) keep second guessing everything now.

Ok, enough of that for a bit....

a couple of more q's that I thought of:

Do you think I should eliminate the Dream feed or I guess I should ask, will it hurt the situation if I do eliminate it.  DH asked if we could stop it for a few days to see if that helps (so far nothing - he's been waking up 1st night at 10:45, second night at 11:30 to feed.  We've fed him and he's gone back down pretty easily - are there any advantages/disadvantages to doing the DF rather than just feeding him at that time when he wakes?

And here's the other thing.....when he wakes up at night sometimes he isn't crying - he's just making noise and kicking around.  I've decided this week to wait a few extra minutes to see if he settles down himself and he hasn't yet - he kicks himself out of the swaddle and sometimes when I go in finally he's laying horizontally in his crib.  Should I be letting him try to settle himself more?  It seems like he can't do it on his own.  This morning he woke at 7:45 and we start at 8, so I just left him in there while he kicked around to see what would happen - he didnt' get upset, but he didn't go back to sleep either.   Just wondering what I should do, if I should at times when he does this for naps after 45 minutes, should I leave him be - I feel like if I do he'll just lay there until I go in.  I just sometimes feel like he yells out for me to come in - but he really is just doing it to see if I will.....have I really lost it?   

I've decided to post yesterday's day here so you can see what a messed up day looks like:(yesterday we both slept till 8:30am because he woke up at 6:45 and I got him to go back to sleep but it took a while)

E 8:30 woke up and fed 6oz
A 8:45-10:00
S took a bit to get him down 10:30-11:00 only 30 minutes, so I tried to extend here with PU/PD....won't do that again - he got very upset.  I continued to try and get him back to sleep until his next feed.
E 12:00 fed 6oz
A just a bit of A time here, he seemed really tired (maybe OT?)
S so started at 12:30 trying to get him down - went down pretty easily, but only slept for 45 minutes.  Here I tried to extend it using pu/pd and sh/pat but he got upset and frustrated.  Finally I put him in the swing, he didnt sleep but he sat contently until his next bottle.
E 3:30 6oz
A still seemed really tired, so just a bit
S 4:15 - 6:15 so I gave up and slept with him on me on the couch for 2 hours.
E 6:30 (do it early here for clustering/top off) 6 oz
A took a stroller ride around the block and then did bathtime and jammies, and nighttime routine.
E 7:30 top off 4oz
S 8:15 took a bit to go down tonight (he usually goes pretty easily by
E waited for him to wake (skipping DF for a bit, see above) 11:30 6oz
S back down very easily
1:15a awake fussing, but not crying, kicking around.  Went in, reswaddled, gave him binky(paci) and he went right back to sleep, again I stay in there 15 minutes to ensure that he's asleep)
E 3:45 woke and was hungry, fed 6oz, went back down, not quite as easily as before, took 30 min instead of 20.
6:20 awake - kicking around, fussing, left him there for 5 minutes to see if he would settle (watched him on the video monitor) and when he didn't, went in, felt that he was wet (full diaper - he just got over being sick and is still on amoxicillin) so I changed him, and his clothes, reswaddled, sat with him for a bit in the dark, quietly and then put him down - took 3 times of 20 minutes to get him back down (he was almost there twice and then woke up)
7:00 back to sleep
7:45 heard him wake, cooing and kicking, left him be until 8am
8am started today's EASY.

Sorry this is so long, let me know if you need more info (yea, right)

Hey - I was in here and he fell asleep on his own small success....just rubbed his cheek for W2S - problem is, I'm so tired myself that I forgot to look and see what time he fell asleep 

Again - thanks for all of your help and for listening to me.

Dana

[Dana D]

Hey - I just posted and realized I hadn't read all of the posts first - thanks Anne for your support:)

Thanks Nadia (think that's your name or is dd's?) it's nice to hear I'm not the only one and this is all pretty common.

Phillipa - Hi and hey are LOs are only a day apart - maybe we will figure all this stuff out eventually, eh?  I look about 129 also, no worries   

He woke up fussy after 45 minutes    I'm trying now to get him back but it's not going well.......

[daniel'smom]

hey Dana--I just popped over here from our birth club thread to see how you were doing....
you seem like a conscientious, intelligent mama, and like me i think you're overthinking it all. this is something i totally struggle with and need people to tell me so. so i'm telling you so (i hope it helps and is a kind reminder--that's what it's meant to be).

you are a WONDERFUL mother. the fact that you're so concerned with his sleep is proof of that. and YOU are the one who knows your child the best. all of our advice is great (and you've gotten some great advice here) but we don't know your child like you do.

maybe for a day, just watch him as objectively as you can. don't think about BW or all our advice. just watch your child and see what your gut is telling you. if he's happy after 45min, great! get him up! put him down when he's tired. feed him when he's hungry and let him take as much as he needs. don't write any of it down. it might help you remember that YOUR instinct is good.

btw, you are doing BW just right. pat/shh isn't a prop if you're just using it to settle him when he needs it. he will be able to fall asleep on his own b/c you have taught him to do that by using pat/shh.

my older son was a HORRIBLE sleeper, slept through the night at 6 months for the first time, and we struggled with him at various other periods as well. now, at 4, we have bath, read books, talk about his day and sing songs, and he goes to sleep by himself and sleeps from 7-7. people look at us like we're the luckiest parents in the world, when it actually took a lot of hard work, discussion with each other, and creativity to figure out how to get this kid to sleep. you WILL have a child who sleeps. when you care as much about your child as you do, your child can only benefit from it.

many hugs!!!
rachel

[Dana D]

thanks so much Rachel - nice words 

[LLLena]

Dana- I couldn't agree more with Rachel.  You are a great mom and are just trying to do the best for your boy as you can.  Try not to be hard on yourself or worry that you're going to ruin him.  That's not the case and just because your doing some things a little different doesn't mean it's wrong.  If anything, you are watching and studying his sleep patterns.  Holding the jolts is great!  You are really doing a super job! 
- I also agree that maybe just sitting back for a day and watching him for cues is a great idea.

- Yay for the small success with him falling asleep independently! You have to start somewhere, right?

- Re nws, hold back and see if he can settle.  There'll be a day that he can.  I am sure Tracy writes about it.  I'll find my book tomorrow and give you reference pages.  I am sorry that I have not done that yet.  But he just needs to be able to drift off on his own and eventually he'll be able to re-settle.  What about a larger blanket to swaddle?  I found a bit larger blanket that worked better as it wrapped more around ds's body and wasn't so easy to get out of.  Or babiesRus sells one that velcros.

- Re df, I think Tracy recommends around the 7 mo mark to get rid of it.  Here's a link explaining it a bit more.  Maybe it'll help. Remember when you are doing it as not to do it too late.  I personally found that to be a weakness of mine.  I would forget to watch the clock and it'd be 11:30.
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=54662.0

-Re binkie, if I didn't say this already, I wouldn't really force it on him if he's falling asleep with out it.  I hate to use the word prop, but you don't want to create one if he doesn't really need it.

- Re waking and just hanging out, I would just let him be if he's not unhappy.  If he wakes early and happy and you go in, that doesn't give him the opportunity to resettle and maybe go back to sleep.  And you really want him to be able to be happy in there and not need rescuing.  If it were me, I would leave him for as long as he's happy up until the point that you'd get him up on a perfect day.  Now that doesn't mean not checking on him, of course, but just play it out and see what happens.  He might surprise you a bit.

- Re routine, if he has not had a nap between feeds, I would seriously try to put him down sooner than later and forego any A time.... after burping, etc.  He's really OT, Dana.  I know you are trying your best.  A time isn't really in stone.  I mean, if he needs the sleep then give it to him iykwim.  You can adjust everything around that.

- when you shh/pat, are you watching his face to see when he's starting to drift? 
- when you said you're sitting with him in the dark, what are you doing with him? Rocking, shh-ing or what?
- Are the nws erratic or pretty much on schedule every night?  My ds woke like clockwork at 3AM every morning until about 6 mos.
- Sorry if you've already answered this.... but how long have you been fighting the 45 min naps?

I hope this is somewhat helpful.  Everyone here is really offering sage advice.  You're really doing a good job, Dana.  Try not to get discouraged.  If you are really feeling like you need a break, take it.  I am glad you took the nap with him on the couch.  You both needed it. 

Lena

[Dana D]

Thanks Lena - lots of good info. 

To answer some of your q's.  When I sh/pat I do watch his face, but with him I don't always pat or sh the whole time - sometimes if I stop one or the other he seems to settle down more.  It's more like I put my hand on him for comfort and if he starts to fuss or kick, I'll sh and/or pat.

when I'm sitting with him in the dark it is just that, sitting, if he starts to fuss then sh/pat while I'm holding him.

The nws do seem to have a pattern lately, around 1am and around 4am, those are really the only ones that are consistent and usually that 4am is to feed.  The rest of the night is different all the time, last night was better than most because while he woke up at 11pm, 1am and 4am, he didn't wake after 4am until 8am on the nose!  That's a start.

The 45 min nap monster has been with us since we started really following EASY which was at about 6wks. 

As for my mood, I feel much much better.  Haven't had a lot of progress with the naps in the last few days, but he went to daycare all day yesterday and I think it was good for both of us.  I was a little concerned (he had a really bad night on Sunday - awake from midnight to two am) so he was tired yesterday morning, but they said he was really cheerful at daycare (he usually is) and he took three naps there, one 25 minutes and two 45 minutes.  I on the other hand, slept for 3.5 hours straight at home and I think that has helped immensely.  If I can keep myself from being OT, I think I can handle this a whole lot better.  Another perk of daycare is he went down incredibly easy last night after his bath and top off - he was out at 7:40!!! 

Today I'm keeping him at home for his first and last nap so I can work on extending them and he'll go to daycare for a few hours in the middle of the day.  I think he really enjoys it there and it gives me a nice break as well.  I know I should probably be working on all of his naps, but I don't want to get burned out and next week I will be working (out of town) so it's good for him to get acclimated to daycare on a daily basis, even if it is only for a couple of hours, IMHO.

Ok, I've been sitting in his room while he sleeps to "listen" for his stirs.  He just stirred at about 30 min and I tugged on his pacifier and sat back down (away from view).  I know it probably wasn't enough but usually with W2S my problem is waking him too much.  We'll see how it goes...I'll let you know.

Oh and as for the binky, I am backing away from using it all the time.  Sometimes at night, if I just put it in for a minute it's like his cue that it's time to go to sleep and then he'll spit it out (normally).  It all depends, some days he acts as if he can't live without it and other days, he pushes it away.  (does this sound like a prop?) I think it may, but the only thing I can do right now is to slowly stop using it as much, if I quit it cold turkey, it may be too much to handle with all this other junk going on....

I feel that I have been really listening to his cues better.  Like you said, for A time, I have forgone it almost entirely in some occasions just to get him some sleep.  This morning he really started yawning around 1 hour mark, so I let him go for a bit longer and when he continued to act a bit tired, I started winding him down at 9:20 and he was down by 9:30.

OK, I know this is getting horrendously long, (sorry) but as for the wakings and just leaving him be, I tried that on Sunday night (after the two hour fiasco) and I got up to about 8 minutes before going in there, when it was an escalated fuss - but I still don't really think he was full on crying.  I'm really afraid that I'm CIO and I'm scared.  My husband says I'm not, but I'm not sure he knows.  It just makes me really nervous, I've tried looking up info on the mantra cry here, but I'm still unsure.  I mean at night when he wakes, he's fussing and kicking his legs like mad - and I usually go right in, now I'm trying to step back a bit, but I'm still scared that I'm abandoning him.  any thoughts?

Wow, this is a short novel, I have stopped the DF for 4 nights now but I'm ready to start it again because I don't think it really has improved anything to not have it.  Last night he was hungry at 1am and he usually isn't.  I think the DF just replaces that feeding, so it's really do I want to do at 10:30 or do I want to wake up at 1am?  That being said, he usually wakes up at 1am anyway but not to feed. 

As for a larger blanket, I did notice the other night when he spit up on his swaddler blanket, I used a different, bigger blanket to swaddle and it actually seemed to hold better.  I have also been trying to swaddle a lot tighter than before.  He's a little Houdini, so I need to step it up a little bit 

uh - oh, gotta go, just woke up crying (45 min  ) I'll try to sh/pat him back...

Again, thank you for your help and sorry for such a long post.

Dana

[LLLena]

Dana- How is it going?  Any better?  I haven't forgotten about you, I promise.

[hannahbanana]

Dana, my DD was born on May 23, is a Spirited little sprite, and has the same naps issues.  I've learned, like you, that I have to listen to her cues and be ready to put her down for her nap when she starts the fussing--too early, like some suggest, and I'm fighting her to settle. 

I have also, very recently, felt as frustrated and discouraged as you, mainly because I was trying to parent by the book and was ignoring my mommy instinct or, at least, not honoring them all the time.  I even posted on the topic, and the responses I got were similar to those your received, mainly to trust myself and do what works for me.

Sleep-wise, I'll say that I'm starting to see signs of improvement.  Whereas we only has to "good" naps in two months, we've had three this week!  Of course, we've also had 20, 30 and 45 minute naps, too.  But I'm starting to accept that this is where we are at the moment.  If she wakes after 30, I know I've kept her up too long.  If she wakes after 45 and doesn't resettle quickly with help (which is most of the time), I know that she isn't ready to sleep.  I'm not forcing the issue.  I know I couldn't if I had another child at home, so I'm trying to keep that in mind and not let her sleep issues take over my every thought.

Basically, you're not alone.

As for the night wakings, she's starting to have some...and I think it's about food.  We haven't moved to a longer interval between feedings yet (3 hrs. currently), and I read that this might help.  My LO used to sleep through the night, and now nearing 4 months, she's waking up, so I think it's not her nature but about needing more food (as I'm having trouble with my milk supply).

[Dana D]

Hey, just wanted to update you on how i was doing and thanks again for the replies.

Hayden is still a short napper but I have had some success with extending but not 100% yet.  I did increase his feedings to 8oz now and we've been on 4 hour EASY for a few days now.  It's still a little rocky at nights, but we've had a couple of nights that have been better. 

I do feel better about the situation, I still have hope for us   Again, thanks for all your help and if you have any other ideas, I'd love to hear them!  Still having a heck of a time perfecting W2S, wish it would work for us.

Dana

[LLLena]

Hi Dana!  I am glad to hear that things are getting better overall.  I know it's hard, but it really does get better.  Extending naps is hard work, imo.  And tbh, I only had success with w2s a few times, but I know of others having great success.

Let us all know how it's going in a few days after changing to 4 hr EASY and increasing his formula amount.  That actualy might just have been the ticket.... and I really hope it is for your sake.  

[Bryony]

Dana, great stuff!

 

Bryony x

[Dana D]

Nap extending wasn't successful yesterday or this morning but, the night wakings last night was greatly reduced:  ONLY ONE!!!!  He woke at 3:30 to eat (very very HUNGRY) and he went right back to sleep and slept until 7:45am!!!  I'll take it!

Will continue to work on his naps for sure, this afternoon.  I know it's only supposed to be a cat nap but if he doesn't get much sleep at the other naptimes it's ok to make it a bit longer, right?? 

Dana