Need to make a decision (sorry long)

[Peek-a-boo]

{{{hugs}}} Sorry you're having such a tough time.   

And I am getting so much pressure to do CC - health visitors, family etc. They were sympathetic when wind was waking her up but now they just want me to leave her to cry. I am not sure I could anyway but on teh other hand I know I am getting resentful which is not good.

I just need to have a solution, and one that will work. After venting at DH I know he will probably help me do whatever but to see it through I need to know it will work. If I do PU / PD I need to know we wont become the prop because we are dangerously close. settling her in the cot seems to be a habit. Do I feed her at some stage anyway as she will be trained to be hungry at night?

CC and pu/pd both have the same end goal: independent sleep.  Pu/pd is simply a more loving, supportive, safe way of getting there.  I really wouldn't let others make you feel like CC is some magic solution that would solve all your problems if you could just stomach it.  Pu/pd will teach the independent sleep just as well, but without jeopardizing your LOs trust in you.

If you do pu/pd properly, you won't become a prop.  People often make a mistake by staying too long in the room and then there are prop issues, but when you're ready to start, we'll go over it together and make sure you're set with a plan that should avoid prop issues. 

About feeding at night . . . nearly all 8 month olds can sleep through without feeding--one feed at most.   If she's used to eating  several times during the night, I'd encourage you to reduce it to just one feed when you start pu/pd and then from there you can decide if that one feed seems like genuine hunger, or just habit.  If it's just habit, you can drop that one eventually too. 

HTH  When you're ready to start, let us know and we'll help you make a plan.   

[bethanys mummy]

many many thanks for your support

Re CC - its hard as everyone is saying it but I REALLY dont want to. I left DD1 to cry a little for naps but she rarely did much more than fuss so it wasn't CC. I beleive in your child sleeping well and independently but also that if they need me I will be there for them. (which is why I actually look fwd to being woken up being unusual so you can know something must be wrong) Its not fair on B that, because she had some digestive issues when she was younger, that she should now suddenly be left to cry

But worried about the prop thing (saying it again aren't I) when last night I was in and out sooo many times but she could not settle without me - or should you always expect this if OT?

On the feeding side I presume you mean one feed ALL night - so if I planned on the df and one at 7 am (esp as I will be worried that she has wind by then) then do you think this will be ok. Will try to do both when she is asleep rather than a means of getting there

We are on hols for a week from next mon to mon inclusive. As its a relaxing holiday (with 2 kids but you know what I mean, we are not going out and about) I do hope we can keep some sort of routine going - I was thinking of one nap in the room in the cot and 2x 40 mins in the pushchair - because I hope they will be 40 mins (not 30 or less) with me and DH to help sort / because it should help her get used to the 12 hour day / because i am not sure how noisy the hotel will be

Do you think we should start PU PD the day after we get back or wait a few days. I guess the latter as I will have both kids that week so things are less flexible?? If the former then need to plan now.....

I was also planning on just doing PU PD for NW's rather than also for naps (continue to pressure at jolts), although maybe to settle for naps if she is restless - any thoughts??

Thanks again

BTW - went down fine tonight  me walking endlessly around to get 20 mins sleep may have been worth it....

[Peek-a-boo]

On the feeding side I presume you mean one feed ALL night - so if I planned on the df and one at 7 am (esp as I will be worried that she has wind by then) then do you think this will be ok. Will try to do both when she is asleep rather than a means of getting there

TBH, if she's waking at 7 am, perhaps it would make sense for that to be the start of her day?  That's a pretty common time for LOs to start the day.  Yes, I do mean just one feed all night, so if you're df that would be it.

Do you think we should start PU PD the day after we get back or wait a few days. I guess the latter as I will have both kids that week so things are less flexible?? If the former then need to plan now.....

I would wait until you are settled back into your routine upon returning home before starting.  You want a clear window of 2 weeks where you can really focus your attention on her sleeping. 

I was also planning on just doing PU PD for NW's rather than also for naps (continue to pressure at jolts), although maybe to settle for naps if she is restless - any thoughts??

I think she definitely needs to be falling alseep for naps without props for naps, at the beginning of the night, and for all NWs.  If pressure at the jolts helps extend her naps, I think that's fine.  If she fully wakes from a nap, however, I think you'll need to use pu/pd rather than any sort of prop in order to extend her nap. 


 

[bethanys mummy]

Hi thanks again

on the waking side when she wakes with wind its because its distrubing her sleep - she has her eyes shut and she thrashes from side to side before eventually waking up and crying. Look forward to her waking up and babbling in her cot instead like other babies . She is a bit constipated at the moment, her bowels are the bane of my life, so that woke her a bit last night, (otherwise not too bad) so off to weaning board to re read info on keeping things moving

OK will plan it on return. Only other Q is where she should sleep? she is currently with us (on the basis I get more sleep if I dont have to get up and change rooms). Thought about putting her in her own room when we start PU PD but wondered if this was too much change at once? Another option is for her to stay where she is (ie familiar place) but we sleep in the spare room for a week or two. Also this gives the person doing PU PD the option to sleep in teh same room in our bed if it comes to that (noticed in the book Tracy sometimes recommends staying with them)

Re naps - yes she usually goes independently or with a slight pat / rub / hand on her (are you counting this as prop? - if so thats the bit about us being a prop which we will want to sort out before we start PU Pd)

Thanks again

[Erin (redstarfalling)]

Hey there - hugs from me too!!

I agree, that if you're doing a dreamfeed, she won't need any other nightfeeds if she's eating well during the day.  Some babies find that when they have a dreamfeed though, it messes up their sleep cycle and causes more nightwakings....just a thought....

As for where, I'd be inclined to do it in the room where she's going to end up sleeping...."start as you mean to go on" and all....

[Peek-a-boo]

I agree with Erin--I'd put her in her own room. 

Re naps - yes she usually goes independently or with a slight pat / rub / hand on her (are you counting this as prop? - if so thats the bit about us being a prop which we will want to sort out before we start PU Pd)

I think once you start pu/pd, you'll want to work on getting out of her room before she is asleep . . . so pat/rub, etc. until she's starting to settle, but then leave her to finish settling and drift off on her own.

[bethanys mummy]

Feeling all jolly and optimistic after night out with friends - see how long that lasts!!

OK - into her own room then, feel a bit sad!! (no going back as its a cot bed that needs dismantling so DH wont let me change my mind)

Yep its that fine line between "settling her in the cot with just a pat or a word" which is what we do do (from the book) and independent sleep.....

Night night

[Erin (redstarfalling)]

Sometimes it ends up being sort of a walk-in/walk-out, because you start letting her settle herself, and leave.  She might be quiet a sec, then fuss a bit, and might go to sleep from there, or she might escalate to an "I need you" cry and you'd have to go in again.  One of the keys is to wait for an all out cry and not rush in at the first sound.

Sleep well (as well as possible!) tonight!

[Peek-a-boo]

Sometimes it ends up being sort of a walk-in/walk-out, because you start letting her settle herself, and leave.  She might be quiet a sec, then fuss a bit, and might go to sleep from there, or she might escalate to an "I need you" cry and you'd have to go in again.  One of the keys is to wait for an all out cry and not rush in at the first sound.

Exactly 

[bethanys mummy]

Hi there

Decided to start PU PD a couple of days after the hols. So she has settled back to home routine but not too long. I will be busy then looking after dd1 on school hols as well as B’s naps! So thought would think about plan now!!! (also may keep me sane to “look fwd” to it on hols…)

Hopefully she will go down ok at night so fine there (just to add a positive note as this has really improved finally over the last few weeks)

I will feed her about 11pm, when she is asleep. This may sound obvious but her first NW is usually about then (I have read they come out of a night stage of sleep about then?) – if she wakes before then PUPD to get her to sleep then df.

PUPD to about 6 am. Then hopefully she will be asleep and I will df her again – so I am not worried about her being windy later / hungry. If she is obviously suffering with wind then I will feed her beforehand as she cant settle if in pain (I know this sounds a bit dramatic but its what got me here in the first place and I can’t feel its fair to leave her in discomfort)

Re the actual PUPD. She will just about be 8 months old but following  a mix of the 6-8 month rules  and the 8-12 month rules as she is nowhere near pulling up to sitting or standing. What she does is roll onto her front and rock on her knees, which is as far as she can get, although she may be commando crawling by then

But using some of the tactics re level of contact to avoid being prop. Trying to take the stance to be firm but not CIO


Don’t go in until crying escalates

First issue, and maybe the most important – do we try to calm in the cot – I know sometimes she would settle with a rub / hold / wait but this is the prop….. or wait unitl really crying . eg tonight she was so slightly OT - but one rub and she was done?

PUPD with no eye contact, PD straight away (ie hardly PU at all, more like laying her down?), turn her to face away from you, use of lovie and words (but not too many as prop?), slight use of hand (if may help rather than holding her down) but take away immediately any settling (?). Continue until signs of settling – or as soon as not crying??

Leave the room quietly or say night night again?. Read the bit about dropping out of sight.?

Back in if crying escalates again…………………..but only if stays escalated as you both said before (soemtimes she cries in frustration but just for 30 secs)

Sometimes she lies on her back and bounces her legs up and down, in frustration I assume. She is usually crying, but sometimes its almost like she is playing (but she is not) – what then??

BTW – is it a big plus that she largely falls asleep for naps and bedtime (and often in the night, AFTER the feed) – just need nuggets of plus points to hold onto. And that we used PUPD to settle her at nights so she may respond quickly

Sorry allot to say as usual but need it to work…..and trying to anticipate what DH has to face, following previous experiences. You ladies are my rocks

(should my post move to the PUPD board now I have “decided”..... )

Thanks as always

[Peek-a-boo]

Don’t go in until crying escalates

Go in when you feel it is a genuine "I need you cry" and not just a fuss or a mantra cry.  Escalation is generally a sign of a genuine cry. 

First issue, and maybe the most important – do we try to calm in the cot – I know sometimes she would settle with a rub / hold / wait but this is the prop….. or wait unitl really crying . eg tonight she was so slightly OT - but one rub and she was done?

I would make it your #1 goal to be out of the room before she is asleep.  You can calm her in the cot if she is upset or OT, but once you see signs of settling, with draw your hand.  If your settling help is a prop, this will likely cause her to get worked up and you will need to be consistent with withdrawing your hand after she's starting to settle be before she is asleep.  You may also try to make good use of your voice to help her settle as this is less likely to become a prop.

PUPD with no eye contact, PD straight away (ie hardly PU at all, more like laying her down?),

Hmmm . . . the only "pd" instruction is really for babies who are pulling themselves up.  If she's not pulling herself up and you feel like she needs more than just assistance in the crib, I would pick her up just long enough to say your soothing phrase, hold for zero minutes, then back in to the crib, facing away from you. 

turn her to face away from you, use of lovie and words (but not too many as prop?),

  Words are okay, as long as you are stopping before she's driftinng off to sleep. 

slight use of hand (if may help rather than holding her down) but take away immediately any settling (?). Continue until signs of settling – or as soon as not crying??

  Um, if she's not crying I would take that as a sign of settling, LOL.  Pu/pd is only to be used during genuine cries.  When the genuine crying ceases, you need to leave. 

Leave the room quietly or say night night again?. Read the bit about dropping out of sight.?

Leave the room quietly.  You want her to be awake enough to know you're leaving, but you don't need to make noise or anything like that.  With a baby who's quite worked up and then starts to settle, I recommend stepping back from the crib then if she continues to settle, leave.  With a LO like yours who in large part has the hang of independent sleep, once she starts to settle, I'd leave straight away. 

Sometimes she lies on her back and bounces her legs up and down, in frustration I assume. She is usually crying, but sometimes its almost like she is playing (but she is not) – what then??

  Hmmm . . . depends on the quality of the cry.  If you're out of the room, I'd be inclined to stay out unless the cry is genuinely escalating.  If you're in the room, I'd be inclined to stay as a soothing presesnce, perhaps offer verbal reassurance, but don't intervene physically.

Key points . . .

If she's not crying--leave.

If she was crying and now shows signs of settling--leave. 

Giver her space to figure out how to self-soothe.  The key is that you want her to self-soothe and she won't be able to figure that out if you get in the way to much.      If she starts genuinely crying in the process you want to be there to support her, but it is not your job to soothe her--it's to give her  the reassurance that she can soother herself.   

[Erin (redstarfalling)]

Bethany really covered it, I think.  Definitely, I want to reinforce that you're not soothing her to sleep, you're only reassuring her when she gets too upset.  "It's okay, I'm here, you're not alone, it's time to sleep" sort of thinking.  The point, too, is not necessarily to prevent ALL crying, it's to be there to reassure her if she does cry like she's really upset.  The settling crying tends to be more stop and start.

[bethanys mummy]

Cheers as always ladies - will print off after hols for DH to memorise

I do really hope that the fact that she can go to sleep at night and for naps (if caught right) will mean this will be a short process

Bit worked up as last night she was up and down - but definately had wind, and more today, it disturbed her nap which has not been the cause for ages. Of course racking brain about what she has eaten to think whats triggered it but, as Erin knows, have been doing that a long long time. May go for a referral post hols (even though its getting better)

I just really hope that DH knows the difference between her crying to settle and crying because of wind. he is actaully quite good at reading her cries and cues  (trained well  ) but it makes me rather anxious to think we may be trying to settle her when she has actually woken as she was sore, i thought we were largely past all that

Off to bed, 4.30am up time tomorrow (hey I am usually up then anyway, no big deal.....) Enjoy the break without my posts to deal with!!!

[Peek-a-boo]

Have fun on holiday!   

[bethanys mummy]

Hi all

back and quick typing between looking after 2 kids, extending naps and 8 loads of washing - only away for a week!!

Had great hols thanks, except for B's sleep - what with paper thin hotel walls (worried about her waking others and people made noise which woke her) and DD1 with a cough in the same room (ditto). She got worse - had to AP to settle her to sleep for naps and at night and during the night she woke every 2 hours ish. DH took over naps in the day so was in the hotel room allot...

Oh well .....

Trying to pack sleep into her today and tomorrow ready for tomorrow night. Also am using PU PD to settle her at bedtime and for naps if need be to get her back to where she was and also to remind her about PUPD so it may help DH tomorrow night

Anyway this process has reminded me of something which has bugged me in the past and again now - her mantra cry. I have never identified it and I wonder if this is the issue

She does have a shouting cry - ie one without tears. As Tracy says its not a full out tears cry and its does sound different from when she say hurts herself or when she is upset when I leave the room. the tone is monotonous (sp?) and it does go on an on. Its very wailing and shouting and she is often burying her head or rocking from side to side with her lovie over her head as she does it. BUT its very loud, she can do it for ages and it does escalate and drop in volume which T said was not a mantra. What do you think?? (wish I could record and play it for you!!)

Any thoughts appreciated

E x