Need to make a decision (sorry long)

[bethanys mummy]

Bethany

thanks so much for taking the time to do the maths!! and create the routine for me

So really hope you dont mind me saying....

For the moment (ie over next few days) I was going to take her back to the old routine above - effectively 12 hours of sleep a night and 2.5 in the day

We have not done this for about 4 days - instead we have shorted her day (to 10.5 hours) and A times, I am "hoping" that this was wrong and has caused the prolonged NW's. If this does not work then will stretch her A times a bit more to a 7.30 - 8 day. one of my problems is that her naps are usually 1,20 (not 1,30, sounds pedantic but can make a difference) or even an hour if she's feeling cheeky

Have a few reasons was hoping to stick with 8-8
- DD1 does 8pm to 7.30am so fits nicely
- few local activities / baby groups run 9.30-10.30
- I am hoping that, when we come to the dreaded 2 to 1 nap swtich she will stick with the am nap (its her most consistent one and the one she extends when those pigs fly) and I can then gradually get rid of the pm cat nap, but this will then fall after school so can spend time with DD1. of course bethany prob has other ideas
- the school run is a pain at present but think I have to stick with it - DH is working from home a bit so this helps cover

Please feel free to give me a virtual slap if you think I am being mad

Yesterday we lengthened her day to 11.25 hours and did see an imporvement at ngiht but dont want to jinx anything...

Thanks for your help

LOVE YOU LADIES

[bethanys mummy]

Sorry

meant to say - bryrony do you think that my description of how she was in teh night was similar to Katies... to give me hope. Think you said so although its so hard to tell.

E x

[Bryony]

Sounds like a plan!

Yes it sounds similar but perhaps not identical...  Katie would wake up and shuffle around, yawning, sucking her lovie, fidgeting, then go to sleep for 20 mins then wake up, repeat x lots, then get fed up and cry ...  then I would settle her with half an hour of shh/pat, she'd sleep for maybe an hour then start again....

Don't know if that's any help?

Bryony

[Peek-a-boo]

No worries and no virtual slapss, LOL.     Sounds like a good plan. 

I would keep careful track of her sleep totals for day and night sleep each day so that you can see patterns.  If it really is UT, you'll want to keep your eye on how much total sleep she is getting so that you can be sure to have enough A time during the A.

Hope things keep going well.   

[bethanys mummy]

So thanks for sticking with me so far... this is where we are at (spot where it all goes pear shaped)

A - 8-10.50 - 2,50
S - 10.50 - 12,10 - 1,20
A - 12,10 - 3.30 - 3,20 (max)
S - 3.30 - 4.45 - 1,20
A - 4.45 - 7.45 (usually asleep by
S - 8 to 5.30 / 6 - nw's vary from stirrings / us getting to the door / us going in, but not v many at all
*5.30 / 6 - awake and upset - may briefly resettle then up again
*Uses mummy as a dummy in bed for a good 45-50 mins.....fidgeting non stop, grrr
*dozes off again into deep sleep about 7
I wake her at 8

So the great news is that lengthening her day again has largely worked and she is pretty much sleeping for long stretches. We have come far in 2 weeks (I ignore the week of the cold...). I wanted to give this a few days to see if this worked out to be true, (hoping not jinxing now) which is why I have let her use me as a dummy so she did not start her day at 6 but tired

Now time to tackle the dawn waking again.... obviously with aim of missing out the * parts and with her waking naturally later one, hopefully with a wake up time of 7.30 - 8 with slightly longer A times again

Reading around the website, BWSAYP etc its obvious that its what Bryony mentioned before whereby she they come into lighter sleep after about 9.5-10 hours which is ideally followed by a period of deep sleep for 1-2 hours (she is SO difficult to wake at 8!)

So its going to be tough, she is so awake, I mean if it takes 50+ mins of mummy dummy….

I presume our options are PUPD and W2S…or a mix of both (ie W2S then if she wakes) – any opinions??

As always some questions…….
-   I have posted separately about W2S for early starts but no one has replied with any success stories – wanted to know about when to wake them and how much as its so brief in BWSAYP – any thoughts or inspiring stories out there??

-   If we end up with PUPD and say she has woken at 6am – do we carry on to 8am? Longer (to enforce the idea of her sleeping again) If she say falls asleep at 7.30 should I wake her at 8? 8.30? just trying to avoid her being OT again

-   Any thoughts on how long this may take to crack… just thinking of DH having to go to work, DD1 etc

Thanks as always

(PS was also going to drop df but worried I may cave thinking she is hungry so leave ‘til later…?)

E x
 

[Bryony]

Hi Emma

Wow, sounds like you have come such a long way!  That's fantastic....!!  You should definitely give yourself (and Bethany) a bit pat on the back!

However not sure what to suggest about the restless early mornings.  A few little thoughts:

Re W2S - does she wake at exactly the same time (more or less) every morning? I think W2S only works if it's a habitual waking at the same time each day - and I am not sure if this is what you are describing....

Re the DF - if it was me I would carry on for a little longer - once I dropped the DF I was always worried that Katie was hungry and was sooo tempted to feed her if she woke up!  I am sure she wasn't - but as you say it might give you that extra security.

So are you now feeding her at 6am?  I am wondering if this will create a habit that you then need to break..?   

Maybe she needs to stretch her A times slightly longer still? Although I would be really careful here as you don't want to end up OT....

Hmmm       Will see if I can think of anything else, and would be interested to know what others think!

Bryony

[bethanys mummy]

Hi there

thanks as usual (just been to the "back to work and bf board"... will be joining you there tooo, not stalking you honest...)

Its a habit I am sure, not her routine now (think I am on the limit of stretching her). dawn was always my weakest point and put that with the fact that she comes into light sleep and thats what we've got!! Yes I feed her.... and for 50 mins is NOT comfortable, but at least its getting rid of any last silly romantic memories of snuggly feeding your baby at night.....

She does not wake at exactly the same time - just about 9.5-10 hours after she went to sleep. I am not looking at W2S to break a waking along the lines of , say, a 2.30 am habit, more to stop the early waking (p283 of BWSAYP rather than p191 )..... I could lecture on that book one day

E x

[Peek-a-boo]

I would try W2S--can't hurt--and then if it doesn't work and she wakes anyway, use pu/pd.  I would only use it until your desired wake time.  If she's never returned to sleep, I would step out of the room for just a sec and then return acting like she's been sleeping and you're there to wake her.  Do whatever your normal wake up routine is--open shades, turn off white noise, etc.  Try to play it off that you're getting her up b/c it is get up time, not b/c she cried long enough or hard enough--if that makes sense.

If she falls asleep near her wake time, I would still wake her near her wake time--wouldn't let her sleep in more than 15-30 minutes. 

[bethanys mummy]

Thats what i thought, thanks

Is there any info on success of w2s for early risers out there?

E x

[Erin (redstarfalling)]

Never worked for us, but our kids didn't wake at exactly the same time....  I found that when we did w2s, they'd just wake EARLIER.  (Although I might not have been handling the whole thing right...).

As with everything else, you could always try it for a week and see how it goes...

And I just wanted to add that I think you've been doing an incredible job, Emma!

[Peek-a-boo]

How are things going?   

[bethanys mummy]

Hi there

thanks so much for asking how things were going, for some reason it did not get into my "updated posts" list

Anyway, FINALLY in a position to give you an update and I think (jinx jinx jinx) we are there!!!

Could not find anyone who had done W2S to deal with early risings..... but sat and chatted to DH about it and we agreed that I would get up about 5.30 and then he would PUPD if it did not work

That night was a disaster.... she was up from about 4-6, the "usual"... so no W2S then!!! Very disheartened. But... DH and I did agree that she seemed to get more wound up when we went in (and then wound up again when we left) so we agreed to leave her just a little longer next time... but still obviously going in if crying got bad

The next night she was ok, no luck with w2s and then about 50 mins of PUPD for her to go back to sleep about 6 am. The next night she resettled herself at about 6.30!!

Sadly the next day she got a cold and a bad cough (I cannot beleive how many germs DD1 brings back from school, poor Bethany is on her 7th cold and we have only just gone into winter) - she did quite well over the next week but it was hard to judge

But now I think I can finally say we are there....! You can still hear her on and off at night and she does have quite a grizzle / cry about 6- 6.30 ( just as we are about to get out of bed she decides to go back off to sleep for an hour... ) but she is basically in charge of settling herself and I assume she will grow out of being so restless..!!

Sooooooooo A BIG BIG thanks to all of you for sticking with me through all of this. Its been a bumpy ride but we would have seriously given up without you all. Hope I can finally post a success story on the main board soon

(Ps she is starting to pull herself up so guess what my next post will be....!!)

  >:

[Bryony]

  >:

my thoughts exactly!   I am so pleased - -that sounds like a real success!  well done

Bryony

[Peek-a-boo]

So glad to hear an update--and such a good one!  Yeah!      Well done!

[bethanys mummy]

Post didn't appear on my updated topics list again...maybe its toooooo long!!

Thanks again