Support for Raising Spirited Babies

[skatty]

Hi Ladies  Reading your posts so many of your problems sound familiar but Leorah is now a year old (on Friday!) and I cant believe how far she has come. As a newborn she never slept during the day at all, it turned out she was MSPI which didnt help but also I realise now that she wasn't just an alert baby but chronically overtired. When I first came home with L I completely dismissed BW, there was no way the routines were going to work with her, I agree with Michelle there should have been a seperate book for spiriteds  However once I worked out she was MSPI and I sorted my diet out I went back to the book and followed a loose EASY but didn't stick to times but just watched for Ls cues which was hard as she never really gave tired signs but I noticed she'd get a glazed look, from here I would quickly bundle her up in her snowsuit and put her in her pram to sleep (she still sleeps outside as we are in Denmark), within 3 days she was falling asleep before I could do her snowsuit up! Her A times were very short but I had a lightbulb moment that although she isnt like the babies you read about in the books she does really need a routine probably more than another kind of baby. We have had short naps and NWs galore which I now realise were due to OT, spirited babies get OT and OS so easily. As for toys and bouncy chairs, mobiles etc we had to banish them until she was at least 3 months and then limit their use, L was only a few weeks old when she was swatting the dangley elephant hanging over her on her playmat, we first thought wow isn't she clever and then realised it was making her furious, oops!! We used to also get a lot of evening fussiness and suddenly we had another revelation that she was just asking to go to bed, I wish we had realised this so much earlier, our rule now is she does not go to bed any more than 12 hours after she woke up and we never have a cranky baby before bed and I see even my friends with angel babies do, honestly I am the poster girl for babies sleep being top priority, they need sleep to thrive! We never did swaddle but L was always a jumpy baby (still jumpy when napping when OT), we got round this by putting her to sleep on her tummy with a breathing moniter, she rolls all over the cot now but still sleeps on her tummy. As for feeding we were lucky and BF went very well and she was a quick feeder and being a bit of a prude I'd always take her somewhere private and found wearing a BF necklace kept her occupied...sometimes

Anyway to jump to the present day we still struggle with short naps for periods and I had a horrible time around the 10 month mark where she had accummulated OT but have found consistancy and the WI/WO method for older babies wonderful. Looking back on her first year I realise although it has been hard work I wouldnt change her spiritedness for anything. Spirited babies have such huge personalities, are very intelligent, fearless, cheeky and bring such joy. L has lots of baby friends and absolutely stands out from the group and the other mums point this out, she notices and has to touch everything  , she charms strangers from her pushchair, she climbs like a monkey, she has a proper sense of humour, she is very advanced in her communication and problem solving skills and loads more. Yes I am bragging but after all those mums showing off about theír fabulous sleepers and how they take their babies along wherever they are going it's my turn!!!L still gets easily OS and OT but I now know I can control this most of the time, she is the only baby in our circle that isn't having a 1st birthday party but I know she needs her naps and sleep to stay on schedule much more than she needs cake and balloons (for this year anyway!)

My biggest advice to mums of spiriteds is make sleep the priority. Ok it's not easy but you can almost hear our LO's brains going 100 mph and the energy they use tearing around the place when they are mobile is crazy they really need their parents in control of making sure they are rested otherwise they will charge on relentlessly! It has been hard refusing invitations and leaving early from places so L can get her sleep but our lives are so much better and stress free now compared to how they were with an OT baby. People always comment on how sociable and happy L is and that's because I remove her before she gets OS.

So wow I have written an essay but I am so passionate about spirited kids now. We may have to work harder but we are the lucky ones that have been chosen to have these special kids. I always notice spiritied babies and kids now, they have a special sparkle about them and an invisible energy that you cant put your finger on but makes them so much fun to be around. I feel like us parents of these children belong to a special club, noone else could understand parenting babies and kids like this and the good really outweighs the challenging, it makes me feel better to think this on NWs lol!! Now when I get comments about L being a handful or hardwork I turn around and say yes its lovely having a child full of energy and enthusiasm for life, I'm really proud she is such a little character and cant wait for all the joy she's going to bring with her lust for life. We are so lucky and lets try and remind each other of that on the challenging days, hugs to you all and your little superstars 

[lawnseed]

There is no way I could have said that better Skatty!!

[em_here]

Hello all, I am mum to Abbi, spirited tearaway! She frightens the life out of me sometimes, she just crawls too quick, smacking off things as she goes! She likes to smack things, pull them apart and has a wail like a banshee go insane!  She flipps squirmes bounces and wiggles, man she exhausts me just by looking at her. Her sleep is ok now, but was terrible up until 7 months old (she is 9 months now)

Do you know, her and DS were playing with toy together today (a musical keyboard) and she continuously shouted Ahhhhhh at Jack and kept swiping his hand off it, he run away crying poor little guy 

[benandmichelle]

Wow Skatty.......It has either been a long road for you and you ahev come out on teh other side or you are extremely optimistic! Thanks for athat post though....very inspiring! The biggest thing is changing your lifestyle to accomodate. MY DH still hasn't accepted that life has to be different so I am fighting him by trying to put Ben first and his naps but still trying to please DH when he wants to go for a drive or out to friends etc... God it is hard

Lorna - you are an angel! Thanks for the advice.
I find it so hard to know when the right time for sleep is. A question to you all: how did you find out how many hours of sleep a day your LO's needed. SOmetimes I thing 2x 2 hour naps and a catnap might be too much. But having said that....it has NEVER happened

Will check back soon. He has been down an hour now for his morning nap....a record. It is jsut the inconsistency of it all. Sometimes the morning nap is OK sometimes the after noon. Sometimes non at all happen. I just really don't understand WHY. I know Maisy ont the sleep boards said that morning nap came together at 4 months, afternoon at 6 and then at 9 months...both worked together for her LO. Wonder if she has a point. I think I am expecting too much for his age.

Thank you all sooo much for the inspiration.

Michelle

[benandmichelle]

hi Annie,

forgot to thank you too. Yes I need to dtop the swaddling. Although he hasn't slept without it yet it s more trouble than it is worth. Just have to do it I think. Sleep is  anyway, can't get any worse really.
Your LO is so gorgeopus and thanks for the advice.

Michelle

[mom of malakai]

Hi. I apologize for not using much computer lingo, as this is a new toy in our house. My name is Julie and my son Malakai is 4 months old. He is a spirited baby. We have been trying to follow E.A.S.Y. since he was born, but have had limited success with it. We will follow a schedule - EAEAS - is usually what it ends up being, he'll follow it for a day or two and then decide that he doesn't like that anymore.

He is a fussy eater during the day. He will only BF if it occurs right after he wakes up and the room is kept dark. Even then it is for a limited time and he usually doesn't take more than 2 or 3 oz. on a good day. Some days he refuses it. There was a 2 day span where he would take about 3 oz from me and 2 hours later take a 3 oz bottle. This worked out well and his night sleep was great. However, it only lasted for 2 days and then I bacame ill (MS). I have no idea how to get him back to that. He would rather feed all night and play all day. If I try to stretch him out at night he just cries louder - I am sure we are waking the neighbours 3 doors down. If I try to feed him more during the day, he just refuses. I know he can go longer at night without food, because he can do it during the day. There are days where he'll go 6 or 7 hours without eating. I just don't know how to get him to eat during the day and stretch like this at night. I can't just switch his days and nights because he plays all day.

His activity times last anywhere between 2.5 hours and 3 hours. If I try to put him down before this, it is just a fight and he still falls asleep at about the 2.5 - 3 hour mark. I am getting betterr at reading his cues, but he likes to keep me on my toes by frequently changing them. He enjoys going out once a day to "see the world". He fusses alot more when we don't go somewhere and he is much happier if we do go out, so this has become a regular part of our day. Some activities we do are Baby and Me classes, Music and Movement, and (his all time favourite) swimming.

He usually has 2 naps a day, sometimes they are both 45 minutes, but usually the second one is only 30 min. long. He wakes frequently throughout the night. He will do a 5 hour stretch one night and then decide that he likes getting up instead and wont sleep longer than 1.5 - 2 hours for a few weeks. It's exhausting. I have tried the pacifier (which he loves) and he is getting better at finding his thumb himself, but there is usually a burp that wakes him and then he thinks he is hungry. I can't keep this pace up much longer. I have a very happy little boy, but I do not have the energy to get so little sleep at night, no rest during the day and do outings. There has to be some compromise in between. Any suggestions on how to get him to eat better during the day and sleep better at night?

Do you have sample schedules from other spirited babies?
I have to go get him. I will post his temporary schedule when I get a chance.

[skatty]

Hi Mom of Malakai and welcome. Wow it sounds like you are having a very challenging time at the mo'! Reading your post about Malakai it sounded like you have a very overtired baby on your hands and I have been there  The thing with these spirited LO's (little ones) is that they don't have typical tired signs and just get more and more wired. When DS (Dear Son) fights his naps at 2˝ hours he is already way past his nap prime time and has got a second wind and will be full of adrenalin which makes it almost impossible for him to go to sleep until the point of exhaustion, are his naps jumpy? His A times at the mo' are more suitable for a 9/10 month old and spirited kids actually often have a shorter A time whilst so small. Saying this I do also understand that it is not easy to correct but we will be here to help you so please do let us know your routine when you can. I am not sure about the feeding during the night as this was a problem I never had but perhaps you could post on the breastfeeding board and main EASY board. My DD just didnt nap until she was a few months old and I started to get her ready for her nap way before I would ever think she could be tired and it worked! She actually started having really long naps for a while, catching upon all the sleep she had been missing which you may find too 

I know you probably have no time to spare for reading but if you can I really recommend the book "Healthy sleep habits, happy child", just ignore the sleep training part but it really helps reading about the science of sleep for a baby and gives some tips on napping etc. I will take a look later and see what it says about swapping day for night and let you know 

Anyway have a good day today and try and give us some more info when you can, it will all get better now you have found this site there are so many people to help you.

(((hugs))) Katt 

[mom of malakai]

Hi Katt. THanks for the support.
I was wondering if he was too overtired, but I am not sure putting him to bed earlier in the day would help. Heres why: we tried to put DS to bed earlier than we thought he'd be ready. But it got to the point that he knew we were trying to put him to sleep, so he'd fight and scream even more. His bed time routine is started way before he's ready and this seems to work in the evenings. We usually get ready for a nap by reading 2-3 quiet stories downstairs (sometimes giving a bottle here if he is hungry or had a small feed - 1 oz. - when he woke up, going upstairs, closing the doors to the rooms upstairs as we go towards his room to darken the hallway, turning on his red light, closing the blinds and sitting quietly on the spare bed in his room while he looks at the dim red light in his room. By this time he is usually ready to sleep and with the last few fighting sleep fusses he'll go down. THere isn't usually fighting or crying to sleep, unless we miss something in our sleep routine or he is put down after 3 hrs. from the beginning of when he got up. For example, if he wakes at 8am, I know I need to start the routine by 9:45 am (10 am if we're out) and he'll go down nicely around 10:30am most times. (Sometimes he'll have a burp and this will stretch it to 10:45 or 11:00 am when he goes down.
Our problem is keeping him asleep for longer naps and feeding during the day so he doesn't need to feed all night.

Maybe I'll try an earlier bedtime (of 6:30 instead of 7 or 7:30) and see if this helps to remedy the overtired problem.
Michele also e-mailed me and said to try water. I'll give these 2 a try and let you know.
Thanks again.

Julie

[violetmum]

Julie, I laughed out loud when I read your description of Malakai wanting to go out once a day to see the world. That's my little Violet exactly! We'll see you at the park!!! I don't know if Malakai is the same, but I know Violet is uncharacteristically quiet while we're out. I used to mistake that for thinking she was in a calm state, but I now know she was just too busy trying to absorb every last thing she could ... which means she gets really overstimulated if our outings are too long. I now try to just do one thing, or two at most, on each trip (instead of trying to cram all my errands in at once, for example). I also try not to be out for more than an hour, but that's easier said than done.

We just did our first 24 hours on the EASY routine. I was expecting 24 hours of sheer misery, and it was better than that so I have hope! (The power of low expectations?) Violet took quickly to eating only 4 hours, to my surprise. She's definitely been a snacker up to this point, and I was worried she'd be hungry all day. We modified the shush-pat to a kind of shush-snuggle, where I basically used my arms to make a human swaddling blanket with Violet on the crib. She liked it a lot better than the patting, which seemed to just get her more upset. I think I read something similar in the archived Spirited Babies board that gave me the idea.

I have a couple questions, that I thought you all might be able to help me with. Let me know if I should head to one of the other EASY boards instead.

-- When we put her down for a nap, should we try leaving the room immediately? Yesterday, I sat back and watched while she played a little bit, and I didn't intervene until she started to get upset. I'm wondering if I should instead leave and come back in.

-- We fed Violet at about 3:15am -- she had been cosleeping with us and hadn't gone a night without snacking. Because of that, we weren't sure whether she could make it all night. When she got up at 3am, she was indicating hunger, and she really chowed down. But, she was hardly hungry at all when she got up this morning at 7am and I fed her. Is that a sign she really didn't need the 3:15am feeding?

-- Is it more important to stick to the order of EASY or just separate feeding from sleeping? Last evening, Violet had a catnap at 5:00pm and woke up at 5:30pm. She wasn't due for a feed until 6:30pm, so I gave her a bath and a quick massage instead, then fed her and sent her to bed by 7:15pm. So, I switch the E and the A, but I didn't feed her to sleep.

Thank you all for being here!!!

[benandmichelle]

Hi Violet,

Sleeping thing: I think definatly don't intervene unless they cry. They can take up to 20 mins to put themselves to sleep but it is DEFINATLY a good thing as it is the beginnings of independant sleep. My son did it today for the first time EVER!!
Either they will go to sleep or eventually cry but it is better to give them the chance. I stay in the room and monitor it from the corner but won't intervene now unless he cries (which usually happens) but I have seen hope.

The feeding question: we have the EXACT same issue but we hav so many night wakings I find it hard to convince hime to go back to sleep without feeding at tleast once in the night. He fed at 3am last night and missed his 7am feed completely this morning. I tried for an hour and he just protested every time but the 10.30 was ok and he filled up then.
Would be great if anyone can help us with this!!

Michelle

[violetmum]

Michelle and everyone,

I found an interview with Tracy somewhere on the site (maybe the naps FAQ? so much great stuff, I lose track). She suggests that if your baby wakes at the same time to feed every night, to start moving that feeding up gradually, so it eventually merges with the dream feed. Anyone tried this???

I can't find the link right now, but I'll post it when I do.

Mary (& Violet)

[lawnseed]

Way to go ben on going to sleep!!! WOOHOO!!!

mom of malaki - I would agree with skatty - your LO (little one) does sound OT and OS (overtired and overstimulated) as he sounds so classically spirited!! The fitful sleep at night would also suggest this, but it is difficult to try and chamge things, as they like what they're used to. You asked for a routines of other babes. At 4 months Eden's routine looked like...
700 - feed (in a dark room)
845 wind down 900 sleep
1100 feed (only one not in a dark room now - I'm lucky if I get 3 minutes)
1245 ish wind down 1300 sleep
1500 feed in dark
1645 cat nap 10 mins
1830 wind down feed and sleep before 7
2230 dream feed.

I would post more, but battery is dying and I don't know where the charger is!!!

HTH

see you soon!!!

[benandmichelle]

Thanks again Lorna!

Mary- I df at 10 anyway...not sure what you mean by pushing it later to meet it? THe 3am feed is after the dreamfeed. You can always try resettling and making it later and later but y friend of mine said sleeping through doesn't really happen like that it is more a case of one night when they are older and the right weight they just doN't wake till the morning. Can any of you with older LO's second that?
Also....was I right about leaving the baby to try to sleep alone if not crying or not? Hope so becuase that is what I am trying at the moment. Sh/Pat is old tooth. Need to get into PU/PD if need be soon.
Mary, write again soon with that link if you find it...thanks!
Michelle

[Elle14]

Hi there
Wow you could be describing my Alanah in most of these posts, i have just posted on the naps board too but feel my lo fits totally into this catagory!!
I've only just found this forum as i have just ordered myself a copy of BW and waiting for it to arrive. I have to say what a relief to find others in my situation, let me introduce myself...
My lo Alanah is 11 weeks old and has always struggled with naps, when she was just 3 weeks old she would be awake up to 3 hours 5 at the most and everyone said that was way too long for her age and she must be overtired, i felt like the worst mum in the world for not being able to get her to sleep!!
We are still struggling, she rarely sleeps past 45 mins and is an absolute nightmare to get to sleep, yesterday was just horrendous with maybe two 45 min naps one 20 min nap in the buggy and 1/2 hour at about 7. It ther took us untill 11.30pm to get her to sleep, the only consolation is once we do get her down atnight she will go 6-8 hours first stretch then usually onother 3 before we are up again. Because her bedtime is never consistent (i try for the same time every night but it varies as to how long it takes me) her wake up time is never the same so we struggle to get into a routine.
To make matters worse i go back to work in 3 weeks and dp will have her during the day who i know just won't have the persistence to get her to nap, consequently i'll end up with with a very OT and OS little girl when i get home at 4pm and he goes off to work!!
I'm feeling at my wits end at the moment as there is no way she can get herself off to sleep and i am currently nursing, rocking or letting her fall asleep on me before i can put her down. Most naps now she screams and screams before hand the worst being before bed, by which time she is so overtired she doesn't know what to do with herself and screams like she is being tortured.
Night feeds can sometimes take me 2 hours, i have to do them in almost pitch darkness otherwise she gets too awake.  and it takes an eternity to re settle her.
This thread has been so reassuring and i look forward to getting my book although i don't hold out any hope that it will be a miracule cure........
Laura.

[violetmum]

Michelle,

Here's the link, the interview is the fourth post.
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=62051.0

It looks like I misread it, though. Tracy was asked what you do when you've eliminated a feed and the baby's still waking at that hour. But, I haven't eliminated the feed!

Here's my plan to get rid of the 3am feed, and I'll let you know how it works. I think Violet's getting enough calories from that night time session that she won't let it go. So, I'm going to pump a few minutes after every daytime feeding and give her that milk extra milk at the next feeding. (She doesn't really like the bottle, so we'll see how successful I am with this. If nothing else, it will eventually increase my milk supply during the day.) I'm going to cluster feed at 5pm and 7pm. I'll keep doing the dream feed. After doing that for a few days, I'm going to start cutting the time she gets on the breast at 3am. Hopefully, I'll add enough calories over the daytime, that she'll drop the 3am feed on her own. If not, I guess I'll have to come up with plan B!?! Anyway, it looks like I'll be spending all weekend attached to the pump!

Laura, in my experience, Violet straightened out some of her unpredictability just after turning 3 months. She hit some kind of developmental milestone that caused her behavior to be less erratic (although obviously not completely, or I wouldn't be here!) Anyway, Alanah might surprise you over the next couple of weeks, so hang in there!

Mary