Support for Raising Spirited Babies

[maman_d_emily]

Happy New year to all.  Hope you had a good Christmas.  I finally resolve the problem of Emily waking up often at night.  It was hunger.  I did stop feeding her every 2 hours (against the lactation consultant who wants me to BF my dd 6-8 times per day -  she never read BW!)  Now I am BF every 4 hours and give solid almost immediatly after BF and a dreamfeed in between 10-11pm just before I go to bed and she now sleep through the night.  She had a few days that she woke 1-2 times before midnight but this is due to teething, some more days like that to come since teeth are not there yet.  I know that she is old (9 months now) for dreamfeed but it's working now and the lactation consultant was happy that she is eating at least 5 times in a 24 hour period.  We will see if she is still gaining weight next week.

She is now standing often to her 2 toys she received for Christmas and loves (a table that do all kind of sound and a little kitchen with all kind of sound too).  It make it sometimes hard for me since she want to be up all the time to those toys but since she did fall a couple of times (not too solid on her legs yet), she want me to be behind her to make sure she doesn't fall. 

[pbmom]

YAY Emily!!!  Great job!

[hannahbanana]

What kind of wakings did you have when you LO's were teething?  Last night, we were up at 9, 11, 1, 3, and 5 (for good).  And didn't I just announce that she was STTN?  Jinx.

Not sure if the problem is teething or a sudden dip in my milk supply because of a cold.  But this morning, she only really started fussing for food at just about 4 hours.  So, I'm going to try to feed every 4, unless she's inconsolable.

I'm really really desperate.  She been waking 2+ times at night for a week, and our naps are terrible!!!  Sigh.

[maman_d_emily]

hannahbanana,
I don't exactly if my dd was waking up 3-5 times at night for only teething or if it was also due to hunger because I had change her BF schedule but one thing for sure is that teething make her wake up 1-2 times before midnight.  I don't know what to say except give you lots of hugs.  I did BF for a long time at night (once at night) around 4-5 months and then she was able to do all night for 2 months then back to her waking up often at night (hunger and some teething), now is on and off lately.  This is just to say that babies are roller coaster and breastfed babies are unknown roller coaster (as you never know if they had their good amount of milk).  Hang in there.
I think my BF days are over, Emily refuse totally the breast but then again today she also refuse the bottle and 2 days ago she also did refuse solid.  I think she is going on hunger strike! Big roller coaster lately.
Annie

[ElsMom]

HannahBanana - have you tried tylenol?  I read somewhere that we shouldn't be so concerned about giving Tylenol too often, since they can't tell us when they're uncomfortable.  It's not ok to give every night, obviously, but if she's having trouble sleeping, maybe give it a try and see what happens.  I sometimes give Elsie half a dose with her dream feed if she's been sleeping restlessly up until then, and it seems to help her make it through the rest of the night.  Actually, the last week, she's sttn on nights I've done that, and not on the nights I haven't.  Wondering what that means here, too!  She just got another tooth, though, so I hope that was it and we'll be back to normal soon.

[hannahbanana]

Lisa--My husband and I were talking about giving her Tylenol (we haven't used it at all, up to this point).  But it might be the thing to help us get through this teething.  I will look into it.  Thanks.

Annie--Thanks for the perspective--and the confirmation.  Yes, babies are a roller coaster.  And, breastfeeding does make it that much more unpredictable, like riding a roller coaster in the dark and dropping off a steep deep you never saw coming.

Today's feeds were much better than the past few days, so we'll see how that affects the night.  I have Hyland's homeopathic teething gel on hand and will try that if/when she wakes.  We may also go and get some Tylenol.  I'll let you know how it goes.

[maman_d_emily]

Hannahbanana,
I agree with Lisa about giving tylenol or you can even try Motrin (this last up to 8 hours but you have to give it with some food or milk).  I've done so for teething, for the night at least since it seems to bother her more at night.  Sometimes it help, sometimes it make no difference.  I think they are hungry too at night since they are taking less a feed during the day when breasfeeding, so even with tylenol/motrin they still wake up.  Supplementing with EBM or formula during the day might give you less waking at night (wish I did that the first time she was teething, I'm doing it now - teething now- and it help a bit, but like I said before, she is totally refusing the breast now so she need to eat).
Annie

[Sarah M2]

Hi - I have posted this elsewhere, but now recognise that I probably have a spirited baby - just like his dad! Have tried sitting in a rocking chair but i think he gets frustrated because he is so visual. Have you tried soothing visuals like projected stars or have these made it worse? Do you think they are better winding down in the dark? Any other suggestions advice much appreciated. In everthing else apart from sleep he is a treasure. So inquisitive and funny!

xxx

I know I have posted recently, but I would really appreciate as much feedback as possible from people who have used pat/shh with a three month old. I have been following the three hour schedule with my boy since 10 weeks.  I now feel that I know his sleep patterns, if I start a wind down 15 mins to half an hour before he needs to sleep after 1.5 hours awake. I can pretty successfully get him off to sleep on my shoulder - have had days with no crying at all.

The problem is that he is already 15 pounds, my shoulder is aching and I'm worried about doing serious damage to my back. Have tried sitting in a rocking chair and it is better but only just. I know I can't maintain this for long. Because of this I have been trying for the last day and a half to put our boy in his cot just before he is about to drop off as the BW suggests. In the day time it hasn't been too bad, he has cried for 0 - 40 minutes at most. Today, he cried for about 15 minutes in the day before going to sleep.

But last night, just before he went to bed for the night he cried for an hour and 20 minutes and tonight he cried for two hours even though I am sat right beside him, patting and rubbing his tummy and shhhing non-stop! I know he was fed, changed and about to fall asleep just before I put him down. Have been trying to follow the three hour routine, but 8am start and 7.30pm to 8pm going to bed.

I know one option is to pick him up when he starts crying, but I'm worried that he will be even more confused if I pick him up and then put him down. I feel that might make him cry for even longer. I also need something that is going to work sooner rather than later because I am physically struggling to keep picking him up. My husband can't really help with the pacing around because he has a bad ankle.

Would really appreciate anyone's experiences? How long did pat/shh take to work when you put them in the cot a/ if you don't pick them up b/ if you do?

If this is going to take weeks I'm not sure I will be able to keep it up, but know that consistency is really important,

Thank you!

Sarah M2

[maman_d_emily]

Hi Sarah M2,

First, you should not do pick up/put down before 4 months.  For me, it did take us 2 months to have her sleep on her own during the day and no crying in the evening but had to go in  the room every 5-10 min to give pacifier again until she fell asleep an hour later.  We started at 3 months to try to have sleep on her own.  At that time, she was crying a lot, it did help a lot when she took the pacifier again at 5 months, so I suggest you try that.  Just to say that everything was screwed up by having somebody to take care of her once in a while that would rock her to sleep, so now I have to rock her during the day but not for the evening. So my experience, it does take a lot of time but you have to make sure that everyone will do the same as you or it probably won't work.  At 3 months, it took us up to an hour during the day for naps and 2 hours for the evening. 

I don't think that soothing visuals will help since that might be too stimulated but you never know.  They say that for spirited one, it is better in the dark but I have seen no difference for mine (at that age). 

Naps and night sleep is not the same so if you don't have too much a problem for him to put him to sleep in his cot during the day then continue to work on that and maybe you can do whatever is working in the evening to have him go to sleep if you find it too hard to work on everything at once.  I did try to work on everything at once and my arm and my back were sore for so much sh/pat, not to say that I was going crazy so I would work on one thing at a time if I would have to do it again.  Also, as they get older, they cry less (they play in the cot instead - not sleeping but at least you are less freaking out since the crying finally stop).

Sorry but my experience was long but it does get better.  One thing that did help was swaddling and holding arms and legs (I still do hold her arms and legs sometimes when I rock her).  One thing I can think is maybe to take step to have him sleep on his cot alone, like example rocking him with him lying on his side and sh/pat instead of on your shoulder and when he is good like that, you can move to put him on his cot on his side and sh/pat and then decrease sh/pat.  I will try that with mine for her naps during the day when I find the courage to do it. 

Good luck and let us know.  Lots of hugs.

Annie  - my lo is now 13 lbs 9 oz

[Sarah M2]

Thank you so much Annie, it is really helpful to have the benefit of someone else's experience. I think I will definitely work on the naps first as they are so much better and also make sure no one rocks him to sleep,

Thanks for all your advice,

Sarah x

[pbmom]

Sarah - hugs - it's so hard.  I just wanted to say that you are good to be working on this now.  With my first I didn't work on it until she was 8-9 months old.  Wow was the AP set in then...rocking/holding to sleep, feeding to sleep, car rides - you name it!  I agree with pp...no pu/pd as he's too young.  I would keep on as he's so young and you are right to do shh/pat in the crib.  Start with him over the shoulder for winddown and then place him in awake and then see where it goes.  Sounds like you've been trying that and he's been crying.  Remember that crying is just his way of saying "hey, mom, this is not how we go to sleep!"  It will take a little bit, but the crying will ease up (of course you'll feel like you have a lack of oxygen to the brain from shhhing so much (at least I did!)).  If you keep at it then soon enough you will be placing him in the crib awake and giving him some reassurance and walking away.

ps - shh/pat didn't work for my 2nd lo at this age - too spirited and it really annoyed her.  Instead I swaddled and rolled her on her side and put my hand on her shoulder.  I did use a paci then and it really helped (before she got addicted to it).  I know others here also have said they had to modify shh/pat to work for them so their lo wouldn't scream. 

Good Luck!

[benandmichelle]

Dear Sarah,
welcome to the club!
It is hard work but things do get better. I would keep the stimulation to an absolute minimum. No lights or music or anything visual close to his cot. It will just wind him up more.
Sh/pat might not work but just remember.....there will be an end to this stage and you can use PU/PD evfentually. sh/pat helped a bit but the real turnaround for us was whan he hit around 4 months and suddenly it was just time to stop doing it and we moved to PU/PD. Even that only lasted a few weeks and from then on, I was putting him down awake and just going in and soothing without picking him up till he fell asleep. I know it is hard to listen to crying but rocking him to sleep will only make things harder. You might get a few weeks of crying to get him to sleep in his bed but trust me: it is worth it....particularly if it is draining you physically.
It is a looonnnggg haul unfortunatly but you just have to see it through.
Just keep doing sh/pat and you will see with growth comes the next phase and it is definatly different to what you are going through now. We have all been there but all I can say is stick at it....it will get better!

Michelle

[OJ30]

Hi all,
This board has been a godsend for me today.  I have been feeling like the world's worst mum since my 9 week old extremely spirited baby was born.  We read BW while I was pg and thought it wonderful.  Unfortunately we never once considered that we would have a spirited baby (but apparently both myself and DH were spirited).  I don't know how many tears I have cried during that time.
Alex has been a really difficult baby since day one.  He has never slept very well during the day but seems to have always known day from night.  He quickly got OT and OS and had what we called 'crocodile' moments (we had to wrestle him like a croc).  He still is a little behind in his feeding but has gained weight well.  He is always extremely alert and delights family members with his smiles, coos and face pulling.  No one can believe that a baby wants to be a part of the adult world as much as he does.  Alex refuses to nap at all some days and I vow not to lose the battle of shush pat but this takes up so much of our day.  By the time DH comes in from work I am an emotional wreck.  Today has been horrible- he won't sleep for more than 20 minutes at a time either in his cot, pram or being held.  We have been really consistent in our approach to the 4 s's and even spend up to 45 mins with him in order to get him into the next cycle of sleep.  Sometimes we cannot get him past the 20 min jolt and then he opens his eyes and grins at us!  Help!  What are we doing wrong?  I feel such a failure especially since we were starting to see a huge difference and he was much easier to put down.  He is always swaddled tightly and uses a dummy when needed.  We have tried experimenting with longer A times, shorter A times, longer wind down, shorter wind down and nothing seems to be helping (especially today).
He has reflux so now on different formula, which has helped but he is still so unsettled.  We have even had a few sessions with a cranial osteopath.  I feel so awful for him as he is so exhausted but fights slepp at every opportunity.  It seems that we take 2 steps forward and then about 10 back.
Any suggestions at all would be gratefully received.  3 hour EASY is such a struggle for us with such short nap times (and definitely no Y for me).
Thank you in advance
Jo X

[benandmichelle]

Hi Jo,
Reade my last post! Just keep doing what you are doing. You are doing a great job! I don't want to freak you out but when he is 6 months old, or before if you are lucky, you will look back and realise how much things have improved. Those early days seemed to last forever for me but now Ben is 7 months old and I look back and realise all that sh/patting and routineing has paid off. YOu probably have a bit of a fight to go but believe me....it will one day be better. There is really no other advice as your LO is still so young. I remember wondering why it wasn't all working like the book says, but when I just stuck to my 'ideal' and accepted things were beyond my control for a while, around 5 months suddenly things started falling into place. Naps WILL extend if you keep doing what you are doing.
It will I promise!!!
Michelle

[jabuti]

hello all! may i introduce myself and my lo?

my lovely daughter, lara, is now 6 months old. after reading bits of the BW book that we bought on sunday, and some of the posts on this thread, im definitely recognizing it as my home  . she is the 30min nap during the day/wake up loads during the night, full of energy, curious, social type. can i sign up?

since sunday night we are trying with the BW routine, and i got 5 hours of solid sleep last night, hooray!!!!! but every night we have a 2 hour session of crying between 7h30/10h00.

regardless of the stress of the crying session, the new routine is excellent for us, before lara was running the show and we had lots of ups and downs. now we know how the day will go and she seems to be adapting well to it, making all of us a much happier bunch  .