Support for Raising Spirited Babies

[sherry lynn]

Thanks everybody so much for your responses. It has been a crazy weekend. Yesterday was my birthday, and still having issues with Lyle's naps.
Beck - I totally hear you about the sleep deprivation messing up your nap. I found this site also in desperation. My name should say Sherry Lynn. But I had trouble registering for this site and then finally I put that in (not realizing I missed the y) and that's what my tag is now. OOps.
In my help post I should have mentioned that Lyle will not go to sleep ANYWHERE but his crib. It is so frustrating. He will not go to sleep in the stroller/swing/being held. Yesterday after a nice long nap he had a meltdown for the rest of the day. Saturday's naps were also very similar. All an earlier bedtime seemed to get me was an earlier wake up time. Then ended up taking the catnap even earlier in the day and we're in the same boat. The sleepy cues are driving me crazy. I'll post today;s schedule to let you guys take a look and offer suggestions. I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to write what was happenening and going through my mind at the time. Because this weekend I tried increasing the awake time and it ended in disaster. One of the reasons is many mornings I'm not positive if he's gone back to sleep after I hear him cough or what not, so I"m not positive about when to put him down. But like this morning I was confident that I knew and it still didn't end well.

[sherry lynn]

Last night I was able to get Lyle to sleep in the car for a catnap. He had been up since 2:45 when I came home he was screaming at the top of his lungs. So I told DH let's try the car. And it worked almost immediately. So he slept until 6. Now, when he does take a catnap I've learned that I can't turn around and put him to bed to early. Like the examples in the BW books. So I put him down a little before 8. And he slept in this morning. No 5:20 chatter, 5:40 Crying. He coughed a few times in the 6:00 hour but he didn't wake until a little before 7:30. So I thought, great, he won't be tired this morning, we'll start on the right foot. Which hasn't happened in awhile.

E 7:35 Was already rubbing his eyes a little after 8 (while still eating) but I let him play a little bit (practice rolling)
A
S 9:32 He started crying all of a sudden when I was walking around with him so I decided oh no, I better put him down. This was at 8:45. Only 1h10m of awake time This was probably still too early? He fought  a lot.  and didn't fall asleep until 9:32. I had to stay the whole time. His eyes kept popping open and jolting.  I left at the 45 min mark and he woke at 1h10m. He woke in a weird mood. And was very hard to read. He usally wakes up happy.

A 10:42
E 11:05
A
S 12:33 Again I guess I tried to put him down to early. And decided today to stop swaddling him. He was very unhappy about the swaddle, and somebody suggested that this might be a problem. He calmed down right after I took him out. But even after being cranky and 2 hours of awake time, by the time he fell asleep he woke at the 45 min mark. This time he was cranky the whole A time.

A 1:15
E 1:50 Rubbed his eyes again while eating. About 2:20. And cranky. So I put him down as soon as he was done eating. Only cried for a little while. Yawned at 2:30 then two more yawns right in a row at 2:39. Then stared off into space for a long while.
S 2:45-3:35 (woke 50 min later)

A 3:35 went for a walk in the stroller.
E 5:00  - went for a car ride when done at 5:30 (on 2 hours of A time at this point, and he would not fall asleep in the car - it's like he will only fall asleep in the car if he is really tired. I think he's really getting use to these long afternoons)
A 6: rolling around on the carpet
E 6:38 Top off, then to bed. Only cried a little bit. Asleep within 10 min of putting down. (thankfully no meltdown tonight) Very likely that he will wake at 10:10 for DF and then at 5:20am and babble to himself for awhile, then cry at 5:40. Then I will do my best to get him back to sleep.

Sorry if I was annoying. I just really need help. Do you guys think I should have just kept him up for say 1h40m this morning and then hopefully it would take him about 20m to go down. So then he would have 2h of awake time? This is what I can't seem to get right.
I've been getting so many short naps 30-36m that I'm afraid of him being overtired. But then he's UT.

[sherry lynn]

Lyle is 19 weeks old, tomorrow. How much awake time could your LO handle for the first nap time? And then for the second? And between the second and catnap? I know that the times usually vary because the first awake time is shorter. This seems to be true for Lyle also. Maybe having a good ballpark will help. It seems that I'm always off by about a week. We haven't been able to get on a good EASY yet. I've been working hard on this since the new year.

[hannahbanana]

At 9.5 months, I'm still trying to figure out my DD's ideal awake times.  But we're making progress.  The key was to really extend her A time, past 3 hrs., where before I was afraid to pass 2 1/2.  Looking back, I think I should have been more courageous with extended her A time much earlier.  I was so afraid of her being OT that I set us up for so many nap struggles.

Anyway, I've found that if she's hard to settle, she needs to stay up longer.  Sometimes I pick her up and read a couple more stories.  And, I'm learning that as she gets older, I have to ignore some sleepy signs and wait for others.  So, maybe yawns and eye-rubbing aren't the final signal.  Maybe you need to wait until he starts to verbally complain or his activity level changes (really slows down or gets irratic).

Good luck.  Hope you figure it out before 9.5 months.

[Fiona (Leah & Kians Mom)]

Ok at this age ds was on 2 hours awake time in the am with either a 45 min or 1 hour nap, then 2.5 hours awake time with a 2 hour or 2.15 nap, then about 2 hours or 2.15 awake time before the catnap which he did for 30 mins, was up by 6 pm and in bed by 8 so again a 2 hour wake time.
If your ds is spirited I think one of the main things is figuring out their wake time and sleep times. Ds was textbook spirited until 6 months of age so it was ok, then the spirited side came out and so did the sleeping issues. We now usually have a 3 hour awake time in the morning and get an hour nap. This morning I got a 20 min nap! Prob too much night sleep cos he slept a full 11 hours without his usual am chat! Dont know which is worse tbh.
Anyway good luck,hope you get some help on the sleep boards too

[sherry lynn]

Thanks guys for your responses. Here's another question for you guys. I've been reading on the boards that the sleepy cues change as LO get older. Any ideas what I should be looking for?
I went with the decreased activity this morning (along with a longer A time) and he still took 30 min to get down. He only fussed for a little while. When I calmed him I left. Then he babbled for a little while and then about 15 min later started crying. Then I helped him, and when he seemed settled again I stopped patting. Then he just tossed and turned for a while and I just laid my hand on him. He feel asleep on the 2 hour mark exactly. So we'll see how long he sleeps for. I was going for 1h45m awake time. Because that was only 10m more than what I was currently aiming for (before I went back to reading his cues). So far neither is really working right now.
At this age did the yawns all of a sudden not mean much. I use to know that if I got him in the crib before the first yawn, I was good to go. Now it seems that maybe I need to wait for a yawn (or some other cue) and then give it about 20-30 minutes for him to be asleep?
How long does it take your LO to settle in the crib before they go to sleep. I've read that too little time means OT and too long of a time means UT. Unless they are screaming of course.

[hannahbanana]

I say try 2 hours A time and see what happens, because, yes, the yawn did start to have less and less value, in terms of sleep cues. 

In my experience, DD falls asleep within 2-5 minutes before good naps.  If it ever takes ten minutes or more, I get 45 minutes, almost guaranteed.

Also, if she A time was not stimulating enough, it's hard for her to sleep.  Granted, it needs to be the right kind of stimulation (playing on the floor with quiet toys vs. bells and whistles, which we don't do much of anyway).  Taking her outside is usually a good idea (but we're in Southern California, so the weather allows for that).  Isabel&Jasmine'sMum (resident sleep expert) recommended both to 1.) take her out and stimulate her, and 2.) extend A times when we were struggling at your LO's age.  I didn't heed her advice.  After a day or two, I just thought that she couldn't do the A time.  But hindsight and 20/20, right?  Or is it that time sweetens memory?

[treebutt]

my lo ones sleep cues are easier to read and also less crazy.  i also do lots of stuff with my lo. we go out to the shops just to walk around, and only a small pocket of time to fill with feed and then nap.  and i do lots of outside stuff to keep him going. i find OT rarely affects lo adversely....i have pushed him to far occasionally but then i think thats more bad luck than anything - and remembering they are people not robots so cant be programed everyday!

now lo gets cranky and grissley and very clingy...cant distract him away from me with anything not even the telly! and he also is a massive eye rubber - its like he cant stop...even with a fist full of food. and then its like your going to  bed...i soothe with bottle and then put in cot.  he doesnt fall asleep on the bottle just gets relaxed and quiet.  this is easy when bottle matches nap time tho!

i found 3 - 6 months hell with naps, but like i said at 8 months it quickly went from 3 - 1 like i wrote in another post....it really does send u crazy. if u can go with the flow a little and if you can maybe practice with the pram?? or not an option?? it took me awhile to get my lo to sleep in it - i used to give him his snuggle rug to let him know he can sleep if he wants. and he slept beter in the pram if he wasnt over tired. if he was OT then the car i used in desperation. 

but stretching A time certainly worked for me....now its filling A time!! also i think i remember thinking this is a transistion time esp when 2-1 got hard to manage and therefore impossible to get perfect - it has to get better.... and it will.  in the mean time lotsa hugs....NAP MONSTER WILL GO AWAY PROMISE

[sherry lynn]

Beck and Hannahbanana,
Thanks for the encouraging words. I just can't figure this out. Maybe tomorrow will be better. I'm going to try 1h40m first thing in the morning tomorrow. If the night goes well. Today was the absolute worst nap day we have had in awhile. I feel like by the time I figure this A time period out that it will change again. I've only had about 3 good days in a row the entire time I've been on EASY! So frustrating.

How do you do a quote box?

[sherry lynn]

pbmom,
I was reading over all the great advice you guys have been giving me, and I just was wondering if I respond to yours if you could help me a little.

I don't know how to do a quote box though - so I'm going to color your words blue.

Sherrylnn - sounds OT to me.  Brooke was doing that for a while (except our nap1 was 38 min).  Drove me nuts.  Early bed did cure it for us, so not sure what else to suggest, but, I also made sure she had the catnap and resorted to AP (car or stroller).
If 36 min means OT then how do I go about increasing his awake time? Today was another perfect example. He had a great nights sleep. 1h20m (and then in the crib) is what I was having success with about 2 weeks ago now, and everybody keeps saying that the A time needs to increase for his age (which I totally agree with) So I did 1h30 today. He seemed to go down already. Like he usually does, especially lately. And then he fussed so I cam and helped him and he was down within 20 min. This is pretty normal for him. Then he woke at exactly 35min later. With no hope of putting him down. So what do I do? Do I go for 1h40 tomorrow, 1h20 or 1h30 again?

That stretch from 3pm (or even 4pm) until 7 is way too long.
I know, but I don't know what to do. I tried the car yesterday. Had luck with it the day before that - When he was WAY OT, and that didn't even work yesterday. It was the same pattern at bedtime. 10m chatting, then fuss, about ten more min to get down. This is our new pattern. 


Can't remember exactly Brooke's A time...I'll look at my log tomorrow and let you know (sad that I can't remember, but I think it was more like 2hr-2hr20min at 5 mos).
When you get a chance I'd love to hear from everybody their awake times. Also how long before the desired sleep time did everybody put them into bed? He will not get sleepy in my arms. So most of the settling gets done in the crib. It's always been this way.

The waking within an hour of going to bed and before DF usually does mean OT. 
Thanks, I didn't know that that is why.
If he's up at 5:40 and you get him up, then bed really shouldn't be later than 6:30.  Thankfully this has only happened once.

It may take a week of early bed for him to catch up from being OT.  He started going to bed so early that our new awake time just became 6:30 and then we had the same problem with the catnap, starting earlier in the evening. It started being that he would be up from 2:45 or 3:15, instead of 3:30/4:00. See my biggest problem is getting in two good naps. I can get him down for 3 naps, it's just that the third nap is over way too early most days because the naps are so crummy, and then I can't get him down for a 4th on most days.

What is he doing when you try to put him down early - crying? On a really crummy day. I think the 5:30 day I tried doing the last feed at 5:45 so that he was in bed at 6:15 and he cried hysterically for an hour    This has happened about 3 times in the last two weeks. I think it's mostly due to OT though. Maybe he would have done it no matter when I put him down?
   
If he's fighting first nap he's probably not tired enough...B always fights when I go too early.
Yet, I keep getting a 35/36 min nap when I try to increase A time?

Thanks so much for your help.
Any tidbits of advice from anybody is helpful.

[treebutt]

was thinking you mite get more direct support re naps on the nap board?? or u mite be there 2!!

not that ur not welcome here !! just they mite have some more specific advice since they are the nap gurus. i found them VERY helpful....esp when i realised that EW can be linked to too much naps....

[hannahbanana]

Here's an idea: if the first two naps are crap, just stretch him before the third one in order to steal some time away from before bed, when he is most likely to have a meltdown.

And, as I recall, we went through a period where all I got was 35 minute naps, despite everything I did.  And then it went away.  It could be a phase. 

Also, our A time was really short at 5 months, less than 2 hrs. certainly.  You're not the only one.

[sherry lynn]

On the nap board they suggested I came here
I am on there too. Thanks for your help.
I'm hoping this is a phase. I'm just worried it's not, because like I said I've only had 3 "good days" in a row the entire time I've been on EASY. I just can't seem to figure it all out. Thanks again for your help. 

[shannaesq]

Hi.  I just wanted to introduce myself.  I'm Shanna and my little one is Rose who is a little over 3 months old (technically though she's about 21/2 months as she was premature).  We're new to BW and have just started posting in the, you guessed it, nap section.  As best as I can tell she is a spirited one although I suspect she may also be touchy.  Anyone else have this combo? 

Anyway, I was just wondering if anyone can relate (either currently or in the past) to my LO's traits) and if there is any advice on how you survive it all!  Here's a snapshot:


Sleeping:  Rose sleeps in what I call the bat cave.  It's darkened (but not yet dark enough as spring approaches) with a staticky (is that a word?) radio running whenever she sleeps.  Her nursery is attached to our bedroom and the radio drives me crazy b/c I can hear the interference from other radio stations underneath the white noise.  My husband and my dog snore happily through this while I stuff earplugs in my ears and take about an hour to fall asleep.  Does anyone else worry that we're making it impossible for our LOs to sleep anywhere than the batcave since they're getting use to napping under these conditions?  Rose does not nap well.  We're dealing with those cursed 45 minute naps.  Can't extend them to save my life.  When she's done, she's done.  I'll go in an try to shh/pat but Rose just tosses her head from side to side (I think her head is on a swivel) and then stares at me before busting out with a big grin as if to say, "Mommy, you're so silly.  That will NEVER work on me."  Other times she stares at the light above her crib, whether it's on or off, and smiles and babbles at it.  At night, Rose takes a loooonnnggg time to get down--sometimes hours -- screaming (I'm talking blood curdling) and fussing.  Once down, she usually gets up ever 3 hours to eat.

Swaddling:  my nemisis.  Rose hates the swaddle but needs it.  She doesn't have control of her hands and she desperately wants to suck on them.  We engage in battle about 30 times a day/night swaddling her.  Every time I come into her room, she has at least one arm out.  She waves it around in the air with a balled fist as if to say, "Victory is mine!"  Then she proceeds to bop herself in the face with her own hand, which prompts a frustrated scream.  I can't wait till I don't have to swaddle her anymore.

Feeding:  I feel so guilty for admitting it, but I hate breastfeeding.  Rose engages my breasts in battle at every feed.  She throws punches, kicks, throws her head back with breast attached, and screams.  I don't know if this is her spirited nature or something else at work.

Activity:  Because of our nap issues, Rose doesn't do too much, which worries me.  I try my best to get her to do tummy time but she hates it.  Do spirited lo's get too frustrated for it ya think?  I think her favorite thing is to either take a Bath (during which she kicks and splashes nonstop) or to just lie there with her legs kicking, her arms swinging, and her head swiveling and sometimes staring at my or my husband as we say words like bubble, mooo, and lalalala, which she thinks are funny.
  Well, that's us in a nutshell!  I'll check back in later!

[treebutt]

sherylynn - it will be a phase coz ur the mummy and will work it out. at times i felt am i just really not good at this?? but then spirited kids by the looks change so quickly and are difficult to read so dont be too hard on your self.  it will all come clear soon...the fact u are trying so hard is a credited to your dedication to being a good mummy. 

shanna - re the swaddling, my lo liked to be swaddled but to transition him we put him into a sleeping bag and gave him a snuggle rug. a small piece of fabric with a teddy sewn in to it - there are lots of variations on these things. it gave little one something to do with his hands and to suck on while falling asleep - i have had huge success with this as he uses it still know and in the pram or car (on the odd occasion) to signal sleep.

my lo has never been a good napper and only sleeps well in his cot in his cave - very dark not much light at all even at nap times. my life revolves around his naps - however,  i feel its worth it. a well rested lo is all i work towards!

re the radio can u slowly turn it down a little each week?? and then maye over a month or two you will have lo used to sleeping with out it? or what about some other music thats more soothing for u as well to sleep with? a classical cd "music for dreaming" here in australia is very popular - im sure there will be somthing similar where u are.

i dont think she should be doing much more than she is - my lo has been frustrated since about 3 months - all the gadgets and toys that other mums think are a life saver my lo has never liked! i think its great that lo is laughing at you both - how wonderful and she already has that beuatiful trait that is  the trade off with spirited babies - my lo drives me nuts, too tears and too drink but gosh, he makes me laugh so much.

like i said in another post - 3 - 6 months were incredible frustrting but my lo is crawling and nearly walking and whilst i still  have to heaps of 1 on 1 to entertain him and change the scenery almost every hour or so it is better as he can initiate some of his own play now.

for your nap and bedtime crying isues maybe try the EASY thread for some routine advice?  and the NAP thread - its nice to know your not the only one....my lo was a 45 min napper.....once they are more tired and can stay up longer it helped with me.

beck

hope this helps!!