Support for Raising Spirited Babies

[mom of malakai]

Hey everyone!

I have given up on the third nap in the day and I have been tring to put Mala to bed earlier (at 6:30) instead of 7. This seems to be working out. His morning nap has been 2 hours long these last 2 mornings!!

We still have to work on the afternoon naps though. He usually sleeps better after a short outing, maybe I'll put this in the afternoon. Thanks Violets mom for the support about our LO's wanting to go out. I thought I was crazy! I will try your idea of being sure to keep the outings no more than an hour long and shortening the number of things I do in an outing. Maybe this will help with the OS difficulty while still giving him his "adventure" out of the house.

Now that he is going to bed earlier and his morning naps are better, he doesn't seem to be as OT now. He still likes to eat at night, but his daytime feedings are already better, so maybe it is just a matter of time. [The water at night didn't work out very well. He just threw it all back up and was hungry a half hour later. ]Thanks to many of you for the idea of stretching him out in between feeds. I thought he would fight a lot more when I made him go longer between feeds, but he enjoys it much better and is slowly increasing the amount he takes at each feed.

(Anyone know how many ounces a four to five month old should be taking in a 24 hour period to keep his weight healthy? This may sound like a silly question, but he was born under weight and it has taken us this long to get him to a healthy weight (even with all his feeding!) I'd hate to loose that now by trying to get him to skip more night feeds, but the night feeding has to stop.

Wow, he's up! That was his first 2hr. and 15 minute nap! Amazing!!!

Julie

[maman_d_emily]

Hi

Michelle: did you try not swaddling Ben and if so, how did it go? Hope that PU/PD will work for you.  If your baby is not crying when you put him to bed, leave him be and he will fall asleep (even though mine use to do mantra cry or toss and turn for hours - that did drive me crazy and after an hour or so I had to try and put her to sleep by sh/pat.  I don't think you should do PU/PD if your baby is not crying.)  I think one way to bring your 3am feed to the dreamfeed, would be to give the feed a bit earlier every night (by 15 min or so) as to bring it to the dreamfeed like the book said when you try to stop the dreamfeed but this is my thought only.  But you will have to make it slow because he probably have an internal clock waking him at 3am. 

Julie: I don't know exactly how you can have your baby feed less during the night and more during the day.  Here some of my thought:  have him feed every 4 hours during the day even if it is only a little bit and even if you have to go in a dark room or whatever (everything he eat during the day, he won't need at night).   Continue on to stretch between feed at night. For the sleeping issue (naps and bedtime), I really had a hard time with Emily and at 4 months, it was still hard for her to go to sleep, she would be tired but wouldn't sleep.  Here is her routine at 4 months (what I remember anyway):
E:6-6:15 
A:6:15-8:00
S:8:00-9:00

E:10:00-10:15
A:10:15-12:00
S:12:00-2:00pm

E:2:00-2:15
A:2:15-3:30
No catnap and bath, feed and bed at 7:30. 
DF at 11:00 but stop that after some time since she was waking at 4 or 5am anyway, with  or without DF.

For your questions about how many ounces she should eat, I don't know how to put the link here  but look in the board of Bottlefeeding under the FAQS, the answer is there for formula.  If your are giving him breast milk in a bottle, then I know the answer is somewhere but I think is about the same.  I know what you mean by not wanting him to loose weight, my daughter was born under weight and still is, she even has not put any weight in the 4th month even if she BF every 4 hours.  Hope this time, she gains weight at her immunization appointment next tuesday.  Anyway your baby need also to sleep and so does you and he can always gain weight later if he loose a bit which is not sure that he will do by giving him less feed during the night.

Violetmum: I did stay and wait until she settle in the beginning and even now when we go to visit somewhere, but at home now I go outside the room and do my stuff and only go in if she can't settle and begin to cry.  If she ate good at 3:00, then she was hungry.  She might eat less at 7am.  From my experience when Emily was around 4 months,  I try not feeding Emily in the middle of the night (I was thinking she wasn't hungry) and it turn out to be awake time for 1-2 hours at night and as soon as I started to feed her, she would feed and then back to sleep. Since then she feed at 5-6am (this morning, she didn't wake  up at all) and back to sleep but she eat less when she wake up for the day around 8am but I do prefer that then staying awake 1-2 hours every night.  If she is waking only once during the night, then I would let her be but don't feed her at night if it's been less then 5 hours between feed.  That was one of the advice on Night waking board.  As far as the bedtime goes, you can have feeding before bedtime if you don't let your baby fall asleep on the breast or bottle.  My bedtime routine is bath, feed, rocking and bed (she fall asleep in her bed!).  She doesn't have a catnap so it's look like EAES before bedtime but if catnap, then can be EASAES.

 hope this help someone.

My issue is more to find a good time to give solid to Emily.  I realise today that she won't eat much of the cereal not because she doesn't like it but because she is not hungry at the time I give it to her.  I think I should give her solid then BF later instead of the opposite since she will drink milk anytime unless I only give her fruits for solid since she will eat that anytime too     I will post on the solid food board but would appreciate any advice from you all.

Annie

[mom of malakai]

Hi,

Violet's mom, I was wondering what kind of outings you take your dear Violet on. I am looking for ideas that involve little walking or standing (as I am limited in what I can do) and are not too OS for Malakai. Going swimming during a quieter time of the day when there are very few others in the pool works well, but I am finding that a lot of the Baby and Me classes or music classes are too OS for him right now. Any ideas anyone?

Here is Mala's schedule:
(It is based on his natural rhythms)

E 5 or 5:30 am
S- 6 to 8 am

E- 8 to 8:30
A-8:30 to 10 (Ready to sleep 10 - 10:15)
S- 10:15 - 12

E- 12 to 12:30
A- 12:30 to 2:15 (ready to sleep 2:15 - 2:30)
S-2:30 to 3:30

A -3:30 to 5:30 (E at 4 for 20 minutes)
S -5:30 to 6:00

E 6
A 6:30 - 8 (we tried to put him to bed at 7:30 and he never fell asleep before 8 or 8:15)
(Bath was at 6:45 and he always wanted a bedtime bottle at 7:15. Cuddles and stories after that.)

DF at 9:30.

THis is supposed to be his schedule and he followed it fairly closely for a few days. He was very happy for those few days and did nice stretches at night. Then I got sick and he is all off and I have no idea how to get him back on track without becoming ill again. What a vicious cycle.

The problems with the previous schedule:
-he usually only slept for 45 minutes in the morning and the afternoon nap is usually only 20 to 30 minutes
-he wouldn't go down for his last nap without going outside for a walk (something I couldn't keep doing myself), even with a walk, most of the time he wouldn't go down for his nap until he was too tired at around 6:15pm - making the night too late
-if he did go down for a nap it was short (20 - 30 min.) then he wouldn't go to bed until 8:15 and sometimes even later like 9, making him too tired the following day
-he never ate well at any of the feeds after his 8 o'clock feeding

(we've adjusted his schedule so that there is no nap in the evening and bedtime is at 6:30)

Here's what I know about Mala (he is happiest when):
-he wakes up at 8 in the morning (if he gets up at 7 because something is bothering him - ie. a dirty diaper, he is very grumpy all day)
-he eats the best and the most every 3 1/2 hours (before this time and he snacks, after this and he is too hungry and burps get stuck and frustrate him and it turns into a huge meltdown)
-his awake time totals 2 1/2 hours (this includes his time to feed, diaper, play and get ready for sleep)
-his bedtime is between 6:30 and 7 pm
-he gets at least a 13 hour stretch at night (this allows for a few feeds, as it would be nice to even get him to stretch for 5 or 6 hours at night)
-he does good if we stay home in the morning, but he gets bored of the house in the afternoon (any ideas of good outings that wouldn't OS him and mess him up for the night?)
 
Any suggestions as to how to make this work for E.A.S.Y. so that he is getting enough food and rest and the right amount of stimulation without being OT or OS?
Also, should I be setting the alarm at night and only feeding him at these times (ex. every four hours at night as well and then start to cut them out?) If he then decides not to get up for the 5:30 am feed, should I wake up and feed him then so that we are setting the day off right because then he wouldn't be hungry before 8 am?
Hope your able to help because I am going nuts!

Julie

P.S. It is weird to have a son who enjoys going out because I enjoy being at home instead!

[benandmichelle]

Mry-thanks for the link! I can't seem to stop him eating in the night yet or resettle before I feed him to make it longer. I am just trusting that soon the day comes when he doesn't need to wake up. Mmmmm I'll believe it when it happens!
Also tried the extra calories in the day with no difference at night yet?!
Laura- I totally agree with Mary...something did happen around 3 months. I can see SMALL improvements in all the effort I have been putting in although still very stressful and far from ok. It was like suddenly he said 'OK I am ready to try to have better naps now mummy because I know I need the sleep'.
I thibnk it is really important to know how you want it to go and just stick with it. To an extent you have to be ruthless and take control. My LO screamed and screamed when put down for naps (and still does although it has gotten better) and for a ling time I thought 'oh he is not tired or doesn't want to go to sleep' which was a mistake. I would give up and get him up and all hell would break loose.
Be strong and confident...listen to her but aklso know that she can't do sleep alone. She needs your help for now and it is not at you when she screams. It is just frustration.
I am also sure if you are consistent you will soon see glimmers of hope although we all have a logn road to travel!

Michelle

[violetmum]

Thanks for the answers to all my questions, everyone.

Julie -- Our outings tend to be a walk along the path in the park by my house, or an errand. We had also been doing a music class once a week. Just being outside seems to be plenty of stimulation for Violet, so maybe you can just hang out someplace and watch the people go by?

Actually, I now think the outings have been too stimulating for us. Violet has been a constant night waker. Since we started the EASY plan almost a week ago, we've had one glorious night where Violet woke overnight only to feed and went right back to sleep. That was the day we didn't go anywhere.  (Her naps the next day set a record, too -- over an hour and a half both morning and afternoon, plus a catnap. That's a record.) Sooo.... I'm putting myself under voluntary house arrest for a week to see whether our outings just proved too overstimulating and caused her night wakings.

By the way, Julie, I totally know how you feel -- I can be an antisocial homebody when I want to be, and I've given birth to a super-social adventure girl!!!

I'm also still pumping and cluster feeding to tank her up during the day. Now that she's eating on a more regular schedule, I can see she really could take more milk than I can give her toward the end of the day. She starts eating voraciously with the 3pm feeding and sometimes can't wait for 5pm for the first cluster feeding! Makes me feel like I've been starving her all this time, but she's putting on weight just fine.

I must say that even though I'm still frustrated with the naps and sleeping situation, Violet's been a real trouper and adjusted to a lot of the changes we've thrown at her.

[mom of malakai]

Hey Violetmum! Thanks for the response. I have noticed with Mala that his naps have grown longer and his night wakings have improved since I have been feeding every four hours during the day and changed his outings slightly. I now keep them shorter and do less stimulating things - like watch the people go by . I also don't go out each day. This seems to be helping. Let me know how Violet does near the end of the week. I've noticed with Mala that if I keep him at home for too many days in a row he seems to get more fussy and sleeps less, so I have taken to spreading out the outings throughout the week - one day I go out, one day we stay at home etc. This seems to be working much better!! For the past 3 days he has had a 2 hr. nap in the am and a 1 - 1.5hr. nap in the pm and 2 of the nights has only woken once at night to feed around 3 am. Good luck with Violet at home!! Hope her sleep improves.

Julie

[maman_d_emily]

Hi
Just to let you know that Emily has put 1 pound since last month and now weigth 11lbs 8oz at 6 months   Still tinny but at least she has gained this month, which she didn't last month.  Yey for us 
Julie, good to hear that Malakai is now doing better naps

Annie

[violetmum]

Great idea, Julie, about spreading out the outings.

Just a quick note to say we had a great day yesterday! Violet had three long naps without me having to resettle her after 45 minute. I don't think she's ever done that before. I even had to wake her up from her late afternoon catnap! Except to feed at 3am, she only woke up one extra time last night, too. Looks like it might be two steps forward yesterday and one step back today, but that's ok. I think we're definitely on the right track.

[jenandben]

I only had time to get down to Michelle's post on 9/30, but I can already say thank goodness I found you guys!  My name is Jen and my son Benjamin is a 7 week old spirited baby that I have been struggling to understand.  I will definitely be back later to read and post some more!

[Mom2Ellie]

Hi All,

I am at my wit's end after another day of 20-45 minute naps and a screaming, overtired 7-week-old. I am about to start the E.A.S.Y. method and was hoping that someone could give me a list of modifications for a spirited child (i.e. a number of people have mentioned not doing PU/PD and emphasize the importance of a completely dark room).

I need all of the help that I can get!

Amanda

[mom of malakai]

Wow! Way to go Violet!!
I posted here earlier today about Mala now wanting to eat before he sleeps, has anyone seen it? It is not showing up on my computer. Did it get posted elsewhere?

Julie

[jenandben]

Hi there!  I introduced myself quickly before, but, again, I'm Jen and my son Benjamin is 7 weeks old.  Early on I thought Ben was Touchy/Textbook, but he's definitely developed into a Spirited/Touchy baby.  For me, someone who likes to know what's coming and to have schedule, this is a nightmare!  We also found out 3 weeks ago that Ben has reflux.  Things have been extra crazy ever since. 

I think our primary problem, like so many spiriteds, is sleep.  We usually sleep well at night- 5 to 7 hours in the first shift, eat, then another 2 to 3 hours.  I know this only totals about 8 hours and everyone keeps telling me he needs more nighttime sleep, but I can't, for the life of me, get him to sleep any longer.  When he wakes up after the second shift he's bright eyed and bushy tailed.  Even if I am able to get him down again he'll only sleep another hour and a half.  We also tried moving his bedtime up.  Whew!  His touchy self came out then.  He woke up every 1.5 to 2 hours those nights.  Daytime sleep is elusive.  He screams with arched back any time I try to put him down for a nap.  I can usually get him down for a nap about 2 to 2.5 hours after he's woken up for the day.  Naps from then until around 4 or 5 are very short and normally nonexistent, and he's miserable to get down.  In the evening, Ben crashes.  He'll sleep very well for 2 to 3 hours, then be very fussy for an hour to an hour and a half.  By 8:30 to 9:00 he's ready for nighttime sleep.  Like I said, I'm not one to fly by the seat of my pants, so this chaos is really difficult, especially on such little sleep (the past three nights, Ben has gotten up about every 2 hours for no apparent reason).  He's so unpredictable!

Eating has gone well.  He was a sleepy eater early on, but has moved past that enough to bf consistently getting about 2 oz. every 2-3 hours.  We pumped milk/formula feed from midnight to 6AM to give me a little break.

As far as activity is concerned, I'm sure this plays into our sleep troubles.  Ben gets way too much, and is easily OS by things as simple as the sound of the clothes dryer constantly humming.  He, too, will get very quiet when we're out and about.  I always thought he was relaxing too.  Now I know he's just absorbing all of the energy and saving it up for nap time later in the day.

I'm just so relieved to hear from people who are struggling with EASY in the same ways I am.  I feel completely lost and don't even know where to begin.  If you'd help me narrow it down to something manageable in the sleep/activity department that'd be wonderful!  It seems all you moms of older babies have great advice, because you've experienced it!

Thanks, all!

[maman_d_emily]

Hi Jen and Amanda and welcome.

First I find that you are really good to be starting EASY at 7 weeks and this will help you in the future.  For both of you, it will be better for you to write down the routine of the day so we can help you more. 

Jen: Is anything been done for the reflux?  Is it under control?  Don't worry, Ben also like a good routine even if he doesn't know yet.  Probably, Ben is OT by the time you put him to bed.  You probably heard that often and you telling yourself you can't have him sleep more, don't worry you're not alone.  I went through the same thing.  First, give you and him time to adjust to a good routine.  It will take time and lot of crying from him and you but it will improve.  First, put a good routine in place without too much awake time compare to sleep time.  He is a bit young so awake time shouldn't be too long.  You can find the information in FAQS of general sleep issues for sleep time during day and night.  It is hard to give you some advice without your routine written down because it all depend at what time he gets up in the morning, when he start that long nap before bedtime.  You can try swaddling him and maybe do sh/pat.  Write down the routine and I'll try to help you more. I'm here often.

Amanda: Don't worry, we're here to help you.  For a spirit baby as young as yours, pretty much the same thing as other babies except the dark room that is preferable (don't make much difference for mine for the naps but help at night and early morning).  You shouldn't do PU/PD for yours yet since she is too young.  Try swaddling and/or hold her down on the bed, put a good routine, know your baby and try to put her down when you know she is tired (she may or may not have any signs - I have to watch the clock for mine since she can have no signs or too early signs), have a good sleep ritual (rock, pacifier, walking, singing, whatever you like) even for the naps. 

For both of you, if you want to change the way it is going now, invest yourself for 2 weeks which mean don't do errand too much, try to stay at home to see more the signs, the time your baby sleep and adjust your baby to the new routine. Write your routine (including how much time it took for your baby to fall asleep, how many time he/she woke up at night, etc) on paper for the next few days  and try to  see a pattern.  I did that for mine and realise she was fallen asleep faster if she was up for 2 hours, no more no less in the morning (that was at about 5 months and she had no sign of being tired).
Good luck for now!

Annie

[mom of malakai]

Help!!!! I can't take any more of this!!! My precious Mala was doing well for a day or two - this always seems to be the extend of following anything. Now we're right back to where we started, with an added problem of wanting to eat before he sleeps!!! (see my message in the E.A.S.Y. forum) Yesterday we were back to 2 short naps and no matter what I tried I couldn't get him to sleep longer. Then the night was worse!! He was up every hour. It would take me at the least a half hour to settle him and then he'd be up a half hour after that! I was up straight from 11:30 pm to 3:30 am at which time he stayed asleep for 2 hours before getting up again. Today his naps are no better and I am going crazy! It is not a growth spurt as he wasn't waking hungry. He didn't need a bum change and the temp. in his room was fine. Any suggestions? I don't think I can do this much longer.  Please help.

Julie

[Mom2Ellie]

Thanks Annie.

I started writing down Ellie's schedule yesterday. Although, I think she may be going through a growth spurt right now as she was eating much more frequently than usual.

She is at the point now where she begins crying as soon as I walk into the bedroom. For this last nap I moved the bassinet into the hallway (which is much darker than the bedroom) to see if a change of scenery might help. I'm afraid that she has already made some negative sleep associations with our previous sleep routines, including the location. Anyway, she went down fairly easy with swaddling and pat/shh. I also have white noise playing. We are approaching the 45 minute mark so we will see if she makes it past that point.

Two questions.

One: When is a good time to move her out of our bedroom/bassinet and into her room/crib? I have heard that you should keep infants in your room at this age. However, she sleeps so lightly that she often wakes just when we roll over in bed.

Two: She prefers to sleep on her side. Up to this point I have fought this and put her down on her back due to the risk of SIDS. Her response is to scream and kick. However, out of utter exhaution, I just put her down on her side and have wedged her into her bassinet with towels. When I lay her down on her side she often will go to sleep within a couple of minutes of pat/shh. I am interested in hearing anyone's opinion on side sleeping and the use of sleep positioners.