Support for Raising Spirited Babies

[sherry lynn]

Hey Guys,
I was wondering... we are still having so much trouble. You guys have read lots of other stuff. I haven't. I've only read this and Baby Wise Which of course I do not do, it's about the worse thing you probably could do with a spirited LO.
Would you guys please please please take a look at my post in the Easy forum if you have a little time. I know it's really really long, but maybe just browse it. Or ask me some questions about what's going on.
In a nut shell, DS is still doing low A times. I'm trying to extend, but it's not going well. We have NW and EW now, and that makes it really hard to extend the A times. He has always been low. On are best nap days he has made it to where he is asleep at about 1h30m. Many people have suggested that that is what is causing the NW, plus being OT. Like he is tonight. We just had our first NW, less than 1 hour after bed I really hope it's not going to be a bad night. But looks that way.

[clareharley]

Hi Sherry Lynn,

I'll have a read asap and see if there's any way I can help/make suggestions. I'm so in the dark myself but maybe we can find some hidden solutions.

Clare.

[sherry lynn]

I was just wondering what some of the best things you've learned from other books. Like maybe how I can get lyle to stop being ot, and if I really need to extend that morning A time. Because when I don't worry about extending it, it is my best nap of the day. When we have NW or EW though, it is really hard to know when to put him down for the first nap. Which I know you know all about

[clareharley]

Well I'm having a go at the Gina Ford routine. The routine for a baby between 9-12 months is:
Feed times: Breakfast 7am, lunch 11.45am, bottle/breast 2.30pm, dinner 5pm and bottle/breast 6.30pm. Nap times are 9.15/9.30am - this is just a cat nap for 30/45 mins. They need to be woken up if they sleep beyond this. The nap which has the most importance is the lunchtime nap which is between 12.30 -2.30pm. The maximum daily sleep is 3 hours but she doesn't say what the minimum is. I've just started having a go at this. It's really hard to get him down for the lunchtime nap if he naps in the morning but if he doesn't nap in the morning he's in a terrible state by 11ish and lunch has to be rushed down him super early.
I went to a mother and baby clinic yesterday and the adviser there said that he has to get used to sleeping at certain times of the day and what's crucial is to not give up. So, if after an hour you're still struggling, you just keep going until he's asleep. If he goes in to the cot and comes out before he's slept he's learning that you'll give in. Well, that's easier said than done, isn't it?! I've just spent an hour getting him down for his lunchtime nap and I don't think I could have gone on for much longer. We've also been referred to a sleep psychologist so we'll see how it goes.
I'm going to read your post now.
Clare.

[campbellchick]

Hi everyone, I thought I'd join this group in hopes to learn more about raising spiritied babies because I definitely have one!!!  I currently feel like I am a total hostage to dd's napping schedule too.  We have only been doing sleep training for the past few weeks (she is now 13 weeks and just on 3 months), but it took me 8 days originally before she finally caught on, thankfully.  However, the only problem is I don't feel like I can leave the house because when we do, sometimes she will sleep (which obviously isn't a problem when she does), but then sometimes she decides not to sleep, which causes her to become OT and OS straight away, then flat out refuses to sleep for the remainder of the day.  Then we spend the next few days playing catch-up before she gets back to being able to self-settle again and taking all of her naps.  Her A time is generally on the low side of the recommended at this age as she is usually only awake for an hour before she is very vocal about needing a sleep again.  She is generally only taking 1 hour naps too, so I think I need to extend her A time, but will only try by 5 mins.  I am so scared of trying to extend her A time though because she gets quite adamant when she wants to go down and I am worried I am going to miss her sleep window, then get a shorter nap instead of a longer one.  It is so confusing and all just trial and error.  The other thing I find hard is keeping her from getting overstimulated.  As her A time is so short, it is hard to even get down to the grocery store, just at the end of my street, during that time.  I tried the other day and we were 20 mins over when she wanted to go to bed (but still within the 1.5hrs), so she was harder to settle, then just took a 30 min nap. 
But, my question is to anyone with an older spiritied baby, does it get any easier around nap times and trying to leave the house?  I have a toddler ds who needs to get out of the house and I purposely took 9 months off work for my maternity leave so I could also spend quality time with ds as well, doing fun stuff.  I would love to be able to take him to the zoo and do all sorts of things, but at this point I could never even imagine an all day trip out of the house...  Please give me some sort of hope that things get better.  PS - I am also about to attempt a 4-day trip interstate in about a month and am pretty sure I should give up all hope now of her being able to stay in her routine!!  Thanks for listening, if anything, I'm just happy to talk to people that understand a spiritied baby 

[treebutt]

hi all

have been reflecting on your request sherry....its a tough question!

Gina Ford
I have problems with some of her language and tone - its pretty bossy and patronising and because she is so confident its hard not to feel like a failure when you cant get your lo to do what you want. she has the same routine for ALL babies.  i also questioned if that was the mothering style i would reflect back on and be happy i chose.  BUT i do think she has some good ideas.  as clare as shown thats the routine i keep in mind....but i am also a little flexible ie. at the moment lo has a lunch between 1030 and 1130 snacking style - as by 1130 he is to tired to sit in a highchair. so i let him snack.  Ford also suggests CIO from a certain age...which i dont like much either....BUT i think the concept is the same as BW - lo HAVE to learn to sleep without props etc.  i have done some crying - more the walk in walk out style when i stopped night bottles and a while back with naps when i had to stop rocking him so sleep. i believe in consistancy if you do decide to do any crying...shh/pat or WI/WO...

i think Gina Ford and BW idea of not getting into AP is great as its terrible to make your lo get out of a habit you cant do anymore but you taught them inthe first place.   

clare - by end of 3 months GF  has 2 hour A time doesnt she?? so sherry, you lo should well and truly be onto 2 hours by 6 months!! according to her!

and by end of 6 months GF A time in the arvo is 2.15pm till 7pm isnt it??? sorry i have lent my book to a friend.

fiona - i find it interesting that you did GF with first but then not with number 2....and noticed A times where too long.

i have read LOTS , prolly too much but at the end of it all - i figure its all much the same: independent sleep - no props, no feeds etc.  how u get there is much the same - varying levels of crying, with you there or not.

naps - A times vary, GF has very long A time. but i do keep it in mind - i am very mindful of keeping my lo lunchtime nap the same.  even if i have EW my lo has a small nap in the morning and is down for nap 2 by 12.   today he woke at 630am so no morning nap - just 1130 nap, so only 1 nap today. other books talk lots about tired cues and similar routines around sleep....

also im not really a fan of the language  "babies learn that you will give in" - the language insinuates that babies are manipulative which i think is pretty harsh.  babies do what they can to get your attention, i agree, but its from genuine need, not because they are manipulative. Children are People Too by Louise Porter is a fantastic book about treating children with respect and remembering they are people too!!

clare - the sleep stuff i have read only does crying for naps for up to 20 mins and if they are hysterical get them out of their cot??  thats a pretty long day in lo room if you have to stay there??? thoughts?? for bedtime its different.

and then there is the other end of the spectrum and thats the just do wat you like, more of the attachment style parenting - and i think you wouldnt be BW at all if you could sustain this or wanted to!  ie. co-sleeping and feeding to sleep, feeding on demand etc.

sorry sherry, prolly more confusing than helpful. 

phew! thats all i have to say at the minute!  welcome campbellchick!!

[clareharley]

I have to admit I haven't really had the chance to read the Gina Ford book properly but I know she has quite a harsh reputation. I've skimmed through some bits that I thought might be relevant but it's really just the routine that I'm trying. So, if I manage to get him down for a morning nap, I only let him sleep for 30 mins. He has been known to sleep for up to an hour in the mornings but then he might only sleep for 20 mins or not at all throughout the rest of the day. What I'm really aiming for is one good nap in the middle of the day so he can get through the afternoon. I'm trying really hard to take a more relaxed approach to all of this - I've tried and failed on this so many times! I guess I'm doing a bit of BW a bit of GF and a bit of AP: I always try to feed him back to sleep when he wakes at 4/5am and it usually works. That's a tough one to accept as we worked so hard to stop feeding to sleep last year. I'm at the 'whatever it takes' stage.

Sherry Lynn, I'm so sorry. I've read your posts and I just don't know what to suggest. I'm so in the dark myself but I do think with our spritied babies we sort of have to accept, to a point, that every day will probably be different so we have to be super flexible. We sometimes go all day with no sleep or just 20/30 mins and I get so upset about it because I feel I've tried everything. This new routine is, well, new, so I don't know if it'll work. I'll certainly keep you posted and if I make any breakthroughs I'll let you know asap.

I feel as though 'sleep' or lack of it has been the issue dominating our lives since the beginning of the year. All we seem to talk about is how much he's slept today, what we can do to try and make it better. It's exhausting and very, very hard. I don't tend to leave the house until the afternoon after I'm done trying the am and lunchtime nap. Then, I just need to get out of the house and if he falls asleep in the buggy, so be it.

Take care, all.

[treebutt]

i am pretty much with you clare - i GF and BW and now that  i have a broad understanding of wat the so called 'rules' are i make the rest up myself. i feed my lo to sleep at 4/5am, i have done for months now.  Naps i would try for nap 1 and 2 and then 3 would be in the car usually as i was always so tired....and now i do nap 1 in the pram or car. so i am no purist!

i struggle all the time with failure and i think its the anxiousness of not knowing wats around the corner that really sends me close to the edge....i still get counselling regularly.

it really upsets me that you are all so desperate to find a solution and tired and over it - struggling with the opinions of others and opinions of yourselves as mums. i think you are all doing an amazing job. my lo turned 1 yesterday - and yes, in refelction it goes so fast.  all those days i spent crying and obsessing because a nap wasnt on time, a feed he didnt want but was due for - i wish i had been kinder to myself....i really think lo's pick up on our stress (and then i would stress about this too!!) cant win can u?!?!   

i may have read nearly all the styles i can think of and i genuinely think BW is pretty much on the mark at capturing most of the good (?) stuff....and funnily enough the book i go back to most is Robyn Barkers Baby Love - its more of a book of facts than a style of routine or parenting....

and Buddhism for Mothers has been my saviour.  whilst i have no interest in becoming a buddhist it is the only book that really captures how truly gut renching being a mother is....it also reminds me of the bigger picture and my role as mother.  some quiet time to reflect and get some perspective.

shelly - i too read your EASY posts and have been trying to help where i can.... lotsa hugs. it was quite over whelming to read...

clare - keep up the getting out of the house.  also in the long run my lo now sleeps great in the pram. i give him his snuggle and he knows he can nap....and i think it was from all the practice and long walks when i was going insane managing 3 naps! 

and when people offer help, take it, and when people say take care of yourself, do.

beck 

[Fiona (Leah & Kians Mom)]

Treebutt( sorry dont know your name) I did it with dd but started at about 4 months, she was an angel baby but she just slotted into easily, maybe that's why. I still kind of do GF with ds as in a short nap in the am and a long one at lunch time. When he was smaller he couldnt do her long wake times, now I find that her wake times are too short for him and he needs at least 3 hours in the am and nearer 4 for other naps.
Yes the book is badly written and she can come across as condescending, but as I said before her routine and the BW routine are pretty similar, BW just seems a bit more Baby and Mommy friendly. I never diverted from the routine with dd and made sure I was home in time for naps etc, used to drive myself mad, but she did sleep through all the time, rarely did EW and her nap transitions were easy, she still is a great sleeper.
Ds wakes during the night for a bottle and does EW but is a great napper and I have been much more flexible this time round, will stay out longer in the am if I need to and just put him down for his nap later without worrying too much about it. The one thing I dont deviate from is our 7.30 bedtime for both of them. Oh and ds is very very spirited, was textbook spirited so the fact that I can change his nap times makes me think there is still a bit of textbook in there despite the NW and EW. Just need to get those sorted which is turning out to be pretty impossible.

[treebutt]

sherry lynn - sorry, i have been calling you shelly. not sure where that came from!

beck

[sherry lynn]

Beck,
Thanks so much for a little perspective. And for reading my posts. I wrote this out last night but then my computer messed up. Here is what I've come up with as what went wrong. And still no idea how to fix it.

I get sort of jealous at all kind of random things - as we all want what we can't have. You guys worry about feeding to sleep at that time - Lyle won't even fall asleep at the bottle at any time in the night when I offer one   Sometimes he will go right back down - sometimes we'll be up for two hours (pat/shhhhhhhhhh)

Thanks guys for taking the time to write to me.

Ok,
Instead of you guys having to read that sooo long post. I'll give you the gist of what I think happened, and what I think our problems are now. Maybe with your knowledge of other theories you can help me.

We tried extending our first A time by ten minutes. It turned into a nightmare. I gave it 2 weeks because Lyle tends to resist change and that was suggested to me. Well I think you should only give it that long if you see some progress. We just spiraled into a serious case of OT. So right after that I think Lyle went through his six-month growth spurt. I think we are on the other side of all that madness now. But we still are having some trouble.

If I stick to 1h20min and then put him down in the morning I can get a good nap. Today I think I could have gotten another good nap if I stuck to 1h40 for the second one, but he fooled me and looked like he wasn't tired, and then went into OT while I was taking him to his room. So the rest of the day went down the tubes. But, even on the best of days, with two decent naps in the morning we get into trouble in the afternoon.

He is often up from his catnap around 4:15-4:30. I can't get him down for another catnap on most days. Even if I put him to bed early he can't make it to 6:30 without getting OT. He does best with 1h20m before bed. Even then if it was a rocky afternoon he will still go to bed OT, like tonight.

Sorry if it was too repetative since some of you read the post. Today was a no catnap day Lyle was up for 4 hours before bed, and that was with being in bed at 6......

[sherry lynn]

Welcome Kerrie,
I don't know if it gets easier with A times and going out later. But looks like you have a good routine going. Job well done.

[treebutt]

sherry

the only thing that i can think of - what is your feeding schedule?  Gina Ford is pretty adament that feeding is THE key to good sleep.  i am pretty sure its 4 hour from really young - like 6 - 8 weeks or something like that. i know crazy!!

can you get close to 4 hourly feeds?  i know it might be a hard 2-3 days but wat if you focused on that instead of the naps?? 

also, do you have a maternal health/ or child and health program where someone can come and stay with you for a day? they mite see something that you dont?? i know some nannies run this privately too?? take the pressure off you having to come up with everything all the time.

will keep thinking and let us know how you go

beck ;o)

[campbellchick]

Hi Sherry Lynn, I just read your last post and so know how you feel.  I think I need to extend my LO's A time, but am terrified as she spirals into OT so quickly, then the rest of the day is all downhill.  Even the last 2 days for some reason (which happens often) she has totally REFUSED to take her last nap of the day  (and I call it the last nap instead of catnap because she only sleeps 1hr at a time anyway) so she has ended up being awake for 2.5hr - 3hrs.  It seems ridiculous as she is sooo overtired by bedtime she has been screaming the place down for half an hour before hand.  I can't get her down any earlier because dh isn't home to take care of ds yet while I feed her and get her down!!!  I really feel for you, it is amazing how much of a difference 10 minutes makes in these babies lives.

[sherry lynn]

You know one of the weirdest things about Lyle is when he was Holly's age he almost never took the cat nap. Now that he has hit 6 months I have a lot more success (Just when it's time to start thinking about dropping it
I think he only needs less sleep during the day, but I can't figure out how to equal it out during the day with his Lower A times. Ah well. Thanks for your guys support though.
DH has been home the last two days, so things feel better