Support for Short Nappers

[teamcarbone]

pbmom-Great news about Brooke.  I think you're on the right track. Our Spirited ones are very tricky when it comes to a wind down routine iykwim.  I've always been lucky when it came to Makayla's nights I wish I could share my secret, but I don't have one  all I can tell you is she loves her thumb and lovey.  However this morning she woke at 5:30, because this is happens so rare I tried to calm her down by holding her and then took her to our room to rock her a bit, neither helped to sooth her so I BF her.  She took a little but was more into the sucking so I took her off, held her a bit more and then but her back down all and all it took 1/2 hour.  She fell asleep until 8:30.  I wish I knew what that was all about.  Anyone have any thoughts? 

I hope your NW sort themselves out.

SwedishMom-Have you gotten any feed back from the EASY board? I remember reading on the boards to make changes to your routine gradually, 10-15 minute  adjustments at a time otherwise you'll create more sleeping problems.     Do you want to train your LO to sleep in a crib/cot for the other two naps instead of the stroller and sling?

I hope everyone else is doing okay...sending good sleeping vibes to all!


 

[ElsMom]

Have you all found that crying when being put down for a nap is linked to OT, or UT, or OS, or anything else?  Sometimes DD just lays her head down after the routine and is out within a few minutes, and sometimes she cries and fights and rolls over (her most frustrating game - rolls over, I roll her back, she repeats, I repeat... I do it 5 times and then take a break for 1 minute, but she's usually crying for that minute, and then we start over.  Sometimes we're rolling back and forth 15-20 times.  I feel like it's a test to see who is more stubborn!)

Today has also made me wonder if she needs different A times for different parts of the day.  2 hrs 15 minutes worked perfectly for her 2nd nap, but it was either too long or too short for her 1st and 3rd, as she fought me hard for both of those.  This is too much to figure out, and I know she's going to change as soon as I find the pattern!

[SwedishMom]

ElsMom, my experience with David is that he cries when put down when he is OT or tired/cranky when I try to extend his naps.

TeamCarbone, yes I did receive some tips from the ladies at the EASY forum about earlier timetable. They too thought that I should do it gradually, 30 min every couple of days. It could be tricky since they collide with leaving and picking up my oldest ds from nursery. 

Right now we are both exhausted and I'm on the verge of tears. Extending naps is a nightmare! I'll have to take a time out or I'll just go nuts. David didn't take his evening nap in the sling so I tried extending even that nap when he woke after 45 min. He went down again after 1 h (!) of dozing in my arms and crying every time I put him down in his crib. I'm just so discouraged right now and thinking of giving up putting him down for extending naps. He'll just sleep nap extension with me, that way we'll both get some sleep during the day. He is fine with the crib for the first short nap, that's always something. I'll settle for that for the time being and work on bedtime in crib instead.

I'll keep following this thread though, our nap monster will stay with us for a while 

[ElsMom]

SwedishMom - hang in there.  I can't figure out nap extensions either...

It seemed like it was working for a week, and then not anymore. DD was staying partially asleep, so even though she was crying, her eyes were closed and she was rubbing her face into the mattress.  Even though it sometimes took an hour's effort to extend, I knew she was still tired.  Now she's waking up completely as soon as I touch her to shush/pat.  I've tried not going in for the shush/pat to see if I'm making it worse, and it doesn't seem to make a difference anymore if I'm lurking by the crib or not.  I think I'm going to have to figure it out based on A times, or accept what I get for a while...  This morning I extended her A time to 2 1/2 hours, and got a good hour and 45 minute nap and she went down without any fuss at all.  I tried 2 1/2 hours A before the second one, and she cried a bit but went down ok, and slept for 35 minutes.  Maybe she'll make it up in the catnap?  I think this is all so new for her as well, who knows how much sleep she needs.  Maybe such a long morning nap means she doesn't need as much later?  Or at least she doesn't think she does.  She did wake up crying (woke up from this morning's long nap happy as could be), but I couldn't get her back down, and as soon as I gave up, she was smiling and happy.  She's been up for about 10 minutes, and is moderately fussy, but not too bad.  BTW, I tried to do W2S at 25 minutes, but I either didn't do it right, or it didn't work... or both.

If 25 minutes means OT, and 40-45 minutes means not enough A time, what does 35 minutes mean?

[hannahbanana]

In my experience, anything from 20-35 minutes means OT, because it's not a full sleep cycle.  My LO tends to wake at 35 also, as it's when she's just starting to come out of deep sleep.

As for nap extensions, I really think any intervention from me is FUTILE!  I just listen, via the monitor, when she wakes and listen to see if she's fully awake and upset or still sounds sleepy and might resettle.  If she doesn't go back to sleep within 5-10 minutes on her own, it's not gonna happen!  I think the magic is in the A times.

But, the problem with that, as ElsMom has pointed  out, is that is isn't consistent from nap to nap.  So, I try to follow cues (which are much more obvious in the morning when she's not OT).  If I don't see anything, I just go with the clock.  If she fights too hard, like after 10 minutes, I get her up for another 10 before trying again.  I'd rather enjoy her than fight her to sleep at this point.  I'm confident that she knows how to settle herself and will do so when she's ready to sleep.  But, she's 6 months old now--that's not something I would've said at 10 weeks.

More and more, I'm coming to the conclusion that I need to do what suits my LO--and me!  In this country, we expect babies to nap independently for long periods of time.  I was reading a blog about an American living in China, and she commented on how their babies only take catnaps in their moms' arms as they go about their day.  And I can't believe that millions of babies are not getting their physiological needs met and that this will somehow stunt their growth/development.

Sleep training is just that.  We want to take our babes to sleep in a way that suits us--and that doesn't have to mean 2 hr.. naps.

For now, I'm happy as long as she's happy.  If she's rested (whatever the nap time), I find that she can place independently and that I am somewhat free to get things done

[ElsMom]

hannahbanana - I think I'm coming to the same point as you, at least for the time being.  My problem now is how to maintain some semblance of a "routine" when every nap length is different.  Today I'm going to try to just go with it - first nap was 35 minutes, just put her down for nap 2 a full 2 hours sooner than her 4 hour EASY calls for ... so catnap won't be catnap, it will be early, and there will most likely be a need for a catnap in addition to that, if she'll take it.  I can't drive myself crazy with it anymore, though, so I'll try just listening through the monitor today and doing what she tells me.  I'll keep checking back here in case anyone figures out the magic solution!  I have a feeling that for a lot of us, the solution is just going to come with time.  It's nice to think I can have a schedule and I can plan around it, but the last month has shown me that I can't perfectly schedule a 5 month old.  She's not having it!!

[hannahbanana]

Soooo true!

With that said, however, my LO is still sleeping!!!  She's already roused 2-3 times but gone back to sleep.  Yeah!!!  That is a skill that definitely came with age, because I haven't pushed for nap extensions for a loooong time.  The only I've done differently is to hold back before going in.

Also, another thing that might be helping is that I'm not following a feeding interval at the moment, because we're coming out of a growth spurt, and the advice was just to follow her cues.  So, that might be another reason that she's doing so well.  I'm following E-A-S-Y but with no set times and it's wonderful!  So much better than feeding every 3 or 4 and sleeping whenever she needed.  That was crazy making.

[teamcarbone]

hannahbanana-Great advice, I totally agree that the keep for LO was figuring out just the right A time.  I also remember when I was having issues with my DD at the 4-5mo. stage and I finally gave up on nap extension and let her sleep as much or little as she need, but I followed the clock during her wake time.  I was also told to follow her cues but at that age and being a Spirited LO it was very difficult to follow cues. I think the great thing about EASY is just like you said follow the routine of Eat, Activity Sleep and don't worry about the clock.

Elsmom-   I hate OT and I have to say as your LO gets older and can handle more A time I think you'll get better at minimizing the OT.  Anyways how did today go for you and your LO?

Swedishmom-How are you feeling these days?  I hope you're getting some much deserved rest.  If you have to take a break from nap extention do so because  if your tired and frustrated David will sense your tension.  My DD did much better once I was more relaxed.   Of course I took me a few months to figure that one out 

Good sleeping to all!

[SwedishMom]

Hi all,

I've calmed down a bit now  I will continue to try to extend David's naps since he does seem to need them. 9 out of 10 times he is tired and cranky after a 40 min nap. I will be more relaxed about it though. I'll try for maybe 30 min and if it doesn't work then I'll just let him sleep with me. He goes down well for the beginning of all his naps now so a couple of days sleep training has paid off. I'm just afraid that if he keeps crying for all his nap extentions than he'll start resenting being put down in the first place and my work this week has been for nothing. 

[ElsMom]

Hello All!  I was just explaining to my (single and childless) brother what all is involved in getting Elsie to take a nap, and he was incredulous.  He said, "You have to do that every time?"  I guess he's like I was pre-baby  - Just figured they were like puppies and slept when they were tired!  Anyway, I have a W2S question.  I've been doing W2S at 20 minutes for all naps, this is the 3rd day.  It was the only thing I knew about that I hadn't seriously tried, because I was scared of waking her all the way, but I figured I had to give it a shot.  It seems to be working (or something is working) to extend her to an hour and 5-15 minutes.  So the last two days, she's taken 3 naps that are each a little over an  hour, and luckily that includes the catnap, because these still-short naps put us early going down for the next one, and then would end up early for bedtime if the catnap hadn't gotten longer, too.  She still seems tired after the naps, though - like maybe I'm extending past one sleep cycle, but she needs another extension.  So do you ever do W2S twice during the same nap?  I can't figure out when I would do the 2nd one - if I did it 40 minutes into the nap, don't I risk waking her in the crucial 30-50 minute light sleep window?  And if I do it at an hour, is that too close to when she's waking on her own?  I think someone said you have to do W2S for 3-5 days before it "sticks" and you can let them try to get through on their own - is that right? 

DD is still not getting 14-16 hours of sleep, but we're up to 12-13 most days, so that's a huge improvement over a month ago and the beginning of my log-taking, when she was getting 9-10.  I'm hoping the magic amount will become clear one of these days, but we haven't had a drastic NW improvement (still 2 and then early waking), so I guess we're probably not there yet.

hannahbanana - I'm scared to follow easy without the clock - right now the only thing predictable we do is eat... I'm being flexible within a half hour, but sometimes she's up just 2 1/2 hours after her last meal, and I hate to feed again that early.  I'm hopeful that things will at least improve in time, and meanwhile I'll do my best to stay sane.   

[SwedishMom]

Elsmom, 12 -13 h instead of 9-10? Thats a major major improvement! I'm just so impressed with you, just wanted to let you know.

[ElsMom]

Thanks SwedishMom.  I was feeding her at pretty much every NW, no matter what, and I think that was just disrupting her sleep more and setting her up for more NW.  It was a really ugly cycle.  She was getting 7-8 hours at night, which I didn't realize, because her actual time from being put down to getting up in the morning was 10 hours - I didn't realize how much was being taken away with all the NFs.  And then once I stopped feeding her every time, she gradually stopped waking so much.  Thank God for BW!  I was the queen of accidental parenting!!

[pbmom]

Elsmom - you have done a great job and you are well on your way to finding a great routine.  I bet that your lo is feeling so much more rested.  It takes a while to get over the OT and that could be causing your NW.  When mine is OT, she wakes at night...they don't sleep as sound when they are OT...it's like fitful sleep or something.  Congrats on getting longer naps too. 

As for us...had a short one yesterday and a short one today (weird as we haven't had a short one in a while).  But, for two other naps today Brooke required no help from me...not even one little replug - UNBELIEVABLE.  I am not going to count on it happening again, but it was great!!!!  I kept staring at the video monitor in disbelief.  Now, if it could happen again so I could actually enjoy it instead of sitting on pins and needles as if the President was going to call needing my help - LOL!!!!

[BabyPixie]

Hey everyone,

Hello swedishmom!

Seems like most of us are making progress *pat on the back for you all* as it's hard going at times!

I bought a black out blind and started putting Jack in his cot to sleep for his naps instead of in the carrycot for the buggy and his naps have improved greatly I think that his A time was just right at about an hour, he goes down within minutes and I'm getting past the 30-45min mark so long as I remember to go in after 20 mins to W2S but it seems to have affected his night sleep or something else I'm doing is . According to the book irregular NW is due to hunger but I'm not feeding him when he does wake up through the night (I just give him his dummy and place my hand on him until he settles) but he doesn't seem interested in eating anymore through the day to be tanked up for lasting throughout the night aaarrrrghh!! I've also switched over slowly from breast feeding to formula over the last few weeks and I'm just wondering if I should being the transition to a 4 hour easy soon? I'm staying in for the next 2 weeks to make sure that things stay on an even keel with his naps and to try to sort out his NW anyway.

[SwedishMom]

I'm so happy! Yesterday and today I managed to extend the morning nap with less crying! I picked him up when he started crying (10 seconds after he wakes), calmed him and followed him down into the crib and held him there while I did sh/pat and then slowly moved away. I had to do it twice but it worked! 50 min of sh/pat through light sleep and jolts - yes, my back is killing me - and he slept 1 h more! He's sleeping now, hopefully the same as yesterday. Just wanted to share this tiny little victory. 

BabyPixie, sorry to hear about your nights! Maybe we'll see each other on the NW board soon...hope not since it will probably sort itself out for you.

For all of you who read this thread, when I posted a tired and frustrated reply I mentioned CIO because I felt like that was what I was doing to my poor baby. It was removed by one of the moderators. I just want to make it clear that I do NOT advocate CIO and apologize to anyone who took offence.

I'm off for a mini-nap while David finishes his. See you later!