So many sleep issues! Where to start?!?!?!

[everhopeful]

HI!  I posted a few weeks back about my lo, but had to leave on a trip and was not able to follow through.  Now I am back hoping to get on track.  I have a 5 month old that sleeps terribly at night.  It seems to be getting worse over time as well. He is an awesome day sleeper, but cannot get it together for night sleeping.  We are on a 4 hour EASY -

7AM wake up (I usually have to wake him up as he is fast asleep after beign up from 5-6ish)
7:15 AM Feed
Activity
9AM Nap  - 2 hours (again I wake him up after 2 hours. I think he would sleep for 3 hours of I let him)
11:15 AM Feed
Activity
1PM Nap - 1 1/2-2 hours
2:35/3:15 Feed
Activity
4:45 Cat nap 45 mintutes
5:30 Feed
6:30 Bath
7:15 Feed
7:30 Bedtime

Then comes the night - after 45 mintutes he wakes and will conitnue to then wake for 10 minute intervals up to 1 1/2 hours later.  I have started the shh/pat and have gotten it down to 30 minutes of fussing and waking.  I start the shh/pat right when he first wakes and continue for 10 mintutes after he stops stirring. 

Then come the night wakings.  Last night he woke at 10 (I was never able to establich a dream feed). I fed him at the waking. Then he woke at 11:50.  I shh/patted him to sleep. Then he woke at 3:50. I fed him at this waking. He stayed awake until 5.  The woke at 5:15 went down with shh/pat. Then I woke him at 7 AM. He was sound alseep. 

I breast feed.  He has a pacifier.  Sometimes I go in and he is cryign with it in his mouth. 

1) How can you tell is your lo is waking from hunger or habit? I always worry that I am shh/patting when I should be feeding or that I am feeding when I should be shh/patting.  He always wakes up crying.  I go in right away because he is crying.  I try to feed him only if 4-5 hours have gone by as sometime he wakes very hour-hour and a half or more.  One night he was up over 10 times from 9PM to 7AM!  That can't all be hunger. 
2) Can you do wake to sleep and shh/pattting at the same time to break the waking in the first place?
3) Should I start shh/patting before he wakes?
4) How long does it take for shh/patting to work? Can it become a prop?
5) Would you wake him in the AM and after 2 hours of napping or would you let him sleep? Sometimes I think we are in a vicious cycle where he can't catch up on his missed sleep, but if I let him sleep too much during the day he won't sleep at night. 

I am sorry there are so many questions!  Thank you for any help that you can give me.

everhopeful

[Bryony]

Hi there!

Waking up after 45 mins or so made me wonder if he was overtired - I know he's sleeping well during the day but his bedtime is slightly late - 2hrs after a 45 min catnap seems a little long A time to me.   Some babies are fine with that - others aren't - it may be worth trying an earlier bedtime (eg 7pm) for 5 days or so to see if that helps.  Just a thought!

In answer to your questions:

1) How can you tell is your lo is waking from hunger or habit?
I would agree these are not all hunger!  I think you are doing the right thing in only feeding if it's been at least 4-5 hrs since the last feed.  If he's hungry he probably won't settle unless fed...  but you would expect him to go back to sleep fairly easily after being fed.

2) Can you do wake to sleep and shh/pattting at the same time to break the waking in the first place?   
Well you only do shh/pat if they wake up.... is he waking at the same time each night?  W2S is only useful for habitual waking at the same time each night. 

3) Should I start shh/patting before he wakes?
I wouldn't, personally...

4) How long does it take for shh/patting to work? Can it become a prop?
Do you mean to get them to sleep?  It varies! It could become a prop but you can slowly decrease the amount of sh/patting you do to wean him off. I always think anything you can slowly wean off is much easier to get rid of than something that's very all-or-nothing!

5) Would you wake him in the AM and after 2 hours of napping or would you let him sleep?
Yes, I would personally, to keep a routine going and otherwise he might get too much daytime sleep...  daytime sleep and night time sleep are different and babies need both kinds.

A few questions from me 

- how does he get to sleep for bedtime and naps - can he get to sleep on his own? 

- Does he need the dummy to go to sleep? 

- when did this start?

- do you have a wind-down in preparation for bed?

Will check back later

Bryony

[simonealisa]

I agree with the first poster... and some other thoughts (I was in the same boat as you and didn't catch on at five months that I was a prop, now at 10 months we are finally on the road to stopping the night wakings!)... my son sounds just like your child, very similar habits and schedule. Nap times are great, it's just the night that has problems. The shh/pat did wonders for us. All of a sudden at 6 months he started sleeping extremely well on his own without any help. If he has a lovey/dummy, that REALLY helps. If not, then I suggest you introduce one. If your child wakes up with the pacifier in his mouth then he could be using it as a prop. Babies drop the pacifier out of their mouths when they are fully asleep, so if it is not coming out of his mouth then it's a sign that he is dependant on it in order to sleep. I would not let him sleep-in in the mornings, I would stick to the routine like the above poster suggested. Otherwise you may get stuck in a habit of him getting more sleep during the day which will not help the night wakings. My last thought is, he does sound like he's overtired and I would try moving bed time earlier. My son had the same issues and it got much easier once we moved his bedtime to 6:30pm (where it still is, at 10.5 months).

[everhopeful]

Thank you ladies!  I so appreciate the help. 

Bryony - Thank you for answering all of my questions! I know there were a lot!

I think I may have been unclear in my schedule posting. He is never up more than 2 hours in the evening (sometimes less if he is yawning). He finishes his evening catnap at 5:30 and then goes to bed about 2 or so hours later.  He does wake at the same time every night - 45 minutes after going down. I was thinking about going in at 30 minutes doing W2S and then when he wakes at 45 minutes starting the shh/pat.  I guess I am hoping that if I do 2 things he will break the habit sooner! 

It only takes a few minutes to get him down at night or for naps.  He can fall asleep on his own for naps, but needs some shh/patting at night to fall asleep. I must admit that sometimes he goes from awake to sleep so fast that you feel like you just put him in your arms and then his eyes are closed.  He is not totally asleep when you put him down but his eyes are barely open. 

He does need his dummy to go to sleep.  I want to wean him off of it, but am not sure when to add that to this whole mix!

This started about 2 months ago. 

Our bedtime routine is bath, Goodnight Moon book, Bottle (I breastfeed but dad gives a bottle of breast milk at bedtime), lullabies, swaddle (we need to think about getting him out of this as well), hold in arms for 1-5 mintutes, in crib when eyes start to go down.

Simonealisa - Thank you sharing your experiences.  I am so happy that things improved for you. I am feeling hopeful.  SOmetiems he wakes with it in his mouth, but most times he spits in out shortly after falling asleep.  I am thinking about going in 10 minutes after he falls asleep and taking it out. We used to do that, but got out of the habit.  No lovey yet.  He is still swaddled and I worry about him not having his hands in case it covers his face.  What time did you r son wake from his last nap when he was 5 months to go to bed at 6:30? 

thank you again!!!!

everhopeful

[Bryony]

Yes - I would go for an earlier bedtime eg 1.5 hrs after he wakes from the catnap. Try it for a week and see what happens!  I would also seriously think about weaning the dummy.

Not sure what to suggest about weaning the swaddle - I am sure a lovey would be good but obviously not very good if swaddled...          Also would it make sense to wean the swaddle before the dummy so that he can then suck his hands/ lovey instead of the dummy?  Hmm you might want to post on the props board about that one - or I can ask one of the props mods to give you some advice here if you want.  I'd be tempted to try the earlier bedtime first, and see if that helps, then consider the dummy issue once you have got on top of any overtiredness issues.

Hoping you get some better nights soon!

Bryony

[everhopeful]

Thank you for your conitnued support!  Last night was pretty bad!  Popped 10 minutes after going down and then up for 2 hours!  Tonight has been much better.  We started the 1 1/2 hour and the bedtime tonight.  He went down pretty easily.  He still popped after 45 minutes and stirred for 25 minutes before finally settling down.  I shh/patted through all the stirring and then 10 minutes more.  Will continue the earlier bedtime for 1 week.  Hoping and praying this is the key!

everhopeful

[Bryony]

Great stuff - hang in there and see how you get on!

B

[Sarah - Enfys' Mum]

Last week Enfys was waking early in the morning (5 am) and not going back to sleep.  I had increased her A time after catnap and before bed (not sure why now?) to around 2 hours.  I cut that A time back to 1hr 20 to 1hr 30 and she is sleeping much better at night and until 6.30 or 7 in the morning. 

[everhopeful]

HI! I'm back!  So, we started putting him down earlier (1 1/2 hours of A befoer bed) and now a new pattern has emerged!  He wakes 10 minutes after going down and the won't settle until about 2 hours later.  Then he still wakes about every 2 hours through the night!  Please help!! I am so tired I can barely think!  We are moving into AP here because he is just wearing us down.  We dream of just getting 3 hours of sleep in a row.  Is this new pattern just a a short lived thing until he gets used to the new schedule or is the new schedule not working? 

Thank you!

everhopeful

[Bryony]

Oh poor you - you must be so tired. Big HUGS. So how many days have you tried the earlier bedtime?  sometimes it takes several days for these changes to take effect.  Waking 10 mins sounds like it could be overtired still - but hard to believe if he's only had 1.5hrs A time.

There is a "jerk" at 10 mins into sleep when they kind of twitch a bit and it sounds like this is waking him up.

I will ask one of the other mods to take a look too to see if she can think of any ideas for you. 

In the meantime - lots of hugs

Bryonyx

[momofclaire]

Hi,
I have been away but Bryony asked me to come take a look.

Are you still swaddling?
I wonder if you might be just dealing with a lot of things at once.  He could be getting ready or starting the 6 month growth spurt which would complicate all the other things and make it hard to isolate the real problem and deal with it/them. 

Are his naps the same as above?  Do you notice him eating more during the day?  Are you still swaddling?  Generally with sleep you will see a bit of progress and then a little regression so be prepared for that.  You might be at the point where pu/pd would be the best sleep training method. I would read up on it a little while we try to sort out the problems, however don't start yet as it won't work with hunger or pain or props.

Do you think the paci is becoming a prop?  Post back and I will keep in touch.

Myia

[everhopeful]

Myia, Thank you for checking in on me.  Tonight has been a goog night!  I am going to keep my fingers crossed.  It took an hour to get him down, but I just stood beside the crib instead of intervening more like I usually do so it took him longer to fall asleep.  I did have to shh and put the pacifier back in a couple times when he started crying. The good news is - he didn't pop 45 minutes later!  I am really trying to get him to fall asleep on his own at bedtime. He can totally do it for naps, but then it totally falls apart for bedtime.  I can put him down for a nap with his eyes open and 1 arm out of the swaddle and he will go to sleep.  At bedtime it is like a totally different child takes over. 

He is still swaddled.  I was waiting for this whole sleep mess to get sorted out before we made the transition, but I decided that could be months so we are keeping one arm out for naps and he is goign down and staying down for 2 hours with 1 arm out. 

I have not noticed him getting hungrier during the day. He is one of those babies you have to feed in a dark room or he gets too distracted to eat.  Maybe I will offer the breast more and see if he will take it. 

The pacifier is definately a prop!!! I so desperately want to get rid of it, but want him out of the swaddle first so he can ge to his hands. 

I will check back in tomorrow and tell you how the rest of the night went.

Thank you!!!

everhopeful

[everhopeful]

Well... the rest of our night was a bit of a mixed bag!  We started to out him down at 7:20, he finally fell asleep at 8:40, woke at 11:40 (fed him), then he slept until 2 (totally out of the swaddle with arms waving).  This is when things went all downhill!  It took 2 hours to get him back down!  I think if we ever have to pick him up to reswaddle then it is really hard to get him back down.  I can't wait to get him out of the swaddle!! After we got him down at 4 (with a feed) he slept until 7:30 when I woke him up!  So, I was up for 2 hours but then I got 3 1/2 hours which I haven't gotten in a long time!  For his nap today I was able to pu thim down with one arm out and leave the room so I know he can do it.  Why can't he do it at night?

everhopeful

[momofclaire]

Do you think you could switch to a sleep sac/grow bag?  We used it for a long time and Claire loved it.

[jcsmom]

My LO needs way less sleep then we were trying to give him. I thought that he was reallllly OT and kept putting him to bed earlier and earlier and letting him sleep later and later after loooong and frequent night wakings. But it turns out that once we shortened his night and naps he sleeps much better. Do you think that your LO may be waking in the night as his naps are too long and his is making up his sleep in the day leading to a vicious cycle?

Taking that long to get him to sleep and them to have him wake 45 minutes later was exactly what happened with my son. From what I have heard, waking after 45 minutes can mean undertired not OT. He did months of 45 minute naps, 20 minute naps etc as I kept shortening his A time and once I lengthed it to 2 hours at 3 months he slept longer. He has really long A times for his age now almost 8 months and 3+ A times.

Just a thought! I have struggled with my son's NW for MONTHS! We are still trying to find the balance as he may only need 13-14 hours of sleep and not the 15+ we were trying to give him. If he gets just 30 minutes- 1 hour too much he can be up for 1-2 hours in the night or many times in the night. Also if his last nap is too close to bedtime it causes wakings 2-3 hours after bedtime.

I may be way off base here but it may be worth exploring as I would hate for anyone to suffer through what I have been suffering through!