Support and Chat thread for moms of early waking toddlers

[Layla]

DEB - are you shortening the am nap as well as pushing it out closer to 9am??? Or is that not at all possible considering she's waking up so early? The key for us to correct the early wake ups was not to let her sleep too early in the morning.

Maybe it would be better to let her sleep the long am nap and offering a catnap and over a couple of weeks pushing out the morning nap until she's down to 1 nap.

403girl - yes, its possible that he needs to eat. Maybe a growth spurt? But its hard to know if its learnt hunger or real hunger . Its up to you if you want to feed and get more sleep in the morning... it might be something that she will grow out of or it might become a habit and something you'll have to wean later.

Momuvtwins - is you're lo on 2 naps still? Are you talking about a 3rd catnap?

Once my dd was on 1 nap consistently, I never did the late catnap just to push bedtime... so I am not sure if that would work but its worth a try and if you are going to try do it about 3-4 days in a row to see if it helps

[lindaloulou]

Deblillian_

Just wanted to chime in here. During the 2-1 nap transition (which took about 3.5 -4 months for us) shortening the AM nap just did'nt work. I would end up with a 30 minute nap all day, an OT LO at bedtime and EW the next day. Also, I was not able to do an earlier bedtime than 6PM, or she would would fuss or play until close to 7PM. Anyway, I had to go with one nap which I started at 9:45, then GRADUALLY pushed to 11:30. Now, we are at an 11:45 to 12 naptime. Her nap never is predictable even still, and ranges from 1.25 hours to 1.75 and occasionally 2. She has always been on the way low spectrum of total sleep which has been a huge challenge as my 5 year old son was and still is a great sleeper. BTW, my LO has never been a 12 hour a night sleeper so I had to account for that at  bedtime. She is 20 months now and averages anywhere from 10.25-11 hours of sleep per night.

Linda   

[momuvtwins]

Hi Layla, I would apprectiate any input...thanks so much.
This plan is coming out of wracking my brain for the last two weeks.   
Yes, they are both on two naps still but because my dd is taking upto 1hr to fall asleep and always shows signs of OT at pm nap and 5, I thought that because she's teething she might be extra tired so I could offer an extra nap, which will make bedtime at 7ish? I thought this might help with EW's, and tons of NW's?

This is dd's inconsistent schedule:

4-5:30 wake ups
A time ranges from 7:30 the latest 8:15am ( depending on wake ups)
wake after 45mins
A time 9:45-12:15ish
12:15-start nap...fussy, rubs eyes, arches back, fluttering eyes to sleep, jolts awake (about 20 mins of this)
12:45 naps anywhere from 45mins to 1.15hrs
1:30 ish wakes is happy for about an hour or so...
3ish...fussy, clingy, won't eat much for dinner
5-wind down, milk, bedtime ( shsh pat almost always). (I dread this part...she arches her back, plays,screeches, rubs her eyes, jolts, closes eyes then cries out, rolls on her stomach. I swaddle her and it helps some
fall asleep anywhere from 5:45-6:30pm
wakes around 7ish or so, then 9ish, 12ish, 2or 3 (really hard to put back to sleep) and the cycle starts again!
Thank GOD ds is ok thrugh the night regardless of naps in daytime
What do you think? I don't mind any suggestions...I'll try it!!!

[DebLillian]

Thanks for your thoughts/advice! 
403girl- She is a great napper for both naps, but when she's really tired the am nap is the big one.
Linda- Good to hear your LO did something similar.  When your LO has 10.25-11hrs does she wake happy?
Layla-  I did push the nap to 9am slowly (which was hard b/c she consistently kept waking early) and cut it short but it seems that when I shorten the am nap she shortens the pm nap which lands us in a mess (NWs, clingy, cranky, etc).  I think you're right that shortening the pm nap is a better plan.  Here was yesterday when I let her catch up on sleep:
4-5am (pd several times in this hour)
9-10:10am nap
1:55-3:30 nap
7:30sleep (we got home late... had hoped for an earlier bedtime)
She was so pleasant all day and so much less clingy.  Although this morning we did the whole pd/wiwo routine from 4-5 again   What is funny is that she seems to need that extra hour of rest b/c if I don't do the pd/wiwo stuff she is an absolute mess all day.

So I guess my current plan is this:  for the next couple days, while DH is away I am going to let her take her two naps on her sleepy cues and make sure she is in bed early.  Once I can, I am going to start shortening the pm nap and hopefully pushing the am nap later.  There are a few life events that will likely get in the way (travel, minor surgery...) so it could be a bit bumpy for a while.  Does this sound ok?  Also, does anyone have any other ideas for how to deal with the dreaded hour of pd/wiwo?  She goes right back to sleep when I do it and then when she wakes up again and it's time to get up I turn on the lights and make a big production out of morning time.

Thanks again for everyone's help.  I am open to suggestions!!

[momuvtwins]

Hey Deb,

Whooo hooo!   YOu did it! Doesn't it feel so good? Throw some of that magic dust over here please!:)) I noticed that your dd has longer A times which is good. My dd can't go past the 3,5hr mark which makes it tough for the pm nap even if she sleeps well and wakes at 2, she's always tired by 5. I too didnot wake her in the am and she was much better today. Her total today was exactly 2.5 hrs. I am keeping my fingers crossed for tonight...bedtime was at 5:15, but again..the whole OT came in...I swaddled and held her and finally she slept by 5:40...I can't figure out why...anyways...it looks like you made a breakthrough...lets hope it keeps up..it might give us some insight into our routines as well!

[Layla]

Deb, good to hear you have a plan and I am really sorry shortening the am nap didn't help. I feel responsible for getting your dd overtired ... its something that worked for us but obviously not for everyone. So I think pushing the am nap is a far better idea in your case

For the early morning... i think that will solve itself once she is down to 2-2.5hrs daytime sleep . Still like you are doing now, do the wi/wo and make a big deal of wake ups...

[DebLillian]

Layla-  Don't feel responsible!!!  It's totally not your fault.  I am so glad that I tried it b/c I had read so much about it and it seems to work for many folks.  I think I'm going to try to conquer the NW monster (tooth monster?!) now.  Last night she woke up in the night completely hysterical.  I can feel the molars trying to make their way through so I'm sure we're in for some fun in the days to come (weeks?  months?!)  I just feel so lucky to be a stay at home mom... I couldn't imagine trying to function at work on this amount of sleep deprivation!  (I was and will be again a school teacher)

[Layla]

Oh poor baby. I hope the molars come through quickly!!! Does she respond well to teething pain?

[DebLillian]

Layla-  Sometimes yes, sometimes no... She's been known to pop a tooth through without ever making a peep about it and then other times she just becomes a complete bear.  Who knows.

So we're back to square one.  She is sleeping beautifully during the day (2 naps equaling 3-3.5 hrs) and 9.5-10 hrs through the night (4:30am was our wake up call this morning).  I am going to make sure that the NWs are done with and then start pushing her later with the am nap and cut the pm nap.  Today should be interesting b/c we have church during what is now her normal am nap... we'll see how this works out.

[smum]

Hi Layla Deb & momoftwins:

It's nice to meet you all here. I'm in the same boat with Deb & momoftwins. The past 3 days my lo's EW was little improved. However, I don't know what to do next. Hoping you can give me some advice. I especially thank Layla for taking time to help me.

<Day before yesterday>

6:10am              wake up
10:05am-50        am nap for 45mins
2:15pm-3pm      pm nap for 45mins
7:20pm              bedtime
result:  slept until 7am yesterday morning.

<Yesterday>
7am                  wake up (to my big surprise)
10:05-10:50      am nap for 45mins (He woke up himself because he was better rested.)
2:25-3:40         pm nap for 1hr20min  (I didn't cut it but his pm nap is very easy to end at 3:20/30/40.)
8:00                  bedtime
result: slept until 6:30am (improvement 10.5hrs instead of 10hrs.)

<Today>
6:30am  wake up
9:50am  am nap for 1hr20min
2:30pm  pm nap for 45mins
7:20-7:30 bedtime


When my lo wakes up at 6am, I face the choice as to if I need to cut his am nap to 45mins.

If I put off his am nap till 10am and cut it to 45mins, his pm nap also easily becomes 45mins. As a result, I need to let him down at 7am (if his pm nap ends at 2:45) or 7:20 (if it ends at 3:00) He can sleep 11hrs or more till 6am or 7am.

Even if his am nap can be 1.5hrs from 2:10-3:40, his bedtime is difficult to move earlier to 7:40. So his bedtime usually remains the same and his wake up time remains the same, too.

Today I want to try long am nap and short pm nap to see if he can sleep 11hrs when his bedtime is moved to 7:20-7:30pm. So I didn't put off his am nap because it will easily end at 11:20 if I put it off till 10:15 or 10:30.

If I want him to sleep 11hrs at night, the only routine ever worked is as follows:

6am wake up
10am nap for 45min
1:50/2:00/2:15 nap for 45mins till 2:45 or 3:00
7pm or 7:20pm bedtime

Layla , do you think I need to keep it for a while? Is it ok for him to have two 45mins nap during the day? What routine do you suggest if he wakes up at 6:30 or 7:00am?

[Layla]

I don't think 2-45mins naps are good for the whole day... but I see where you are coming from.

I would still try to stick to the 2 naps... perhaps even shorten the morning nap to 30mins so that the afternoon nap lengthens.

Something like this:

6am - wake
10-10.30am - morning nap
1.30-3pm - afternoon nap
7pm - bedtime

If he wakes around 7am, I would do

7am - wake
10.30-11am - morning nap
2-3.30pm - afternoon nap
7.30pm - bedtime

[smum]

Hi Layla:


Really thanks for your answer. However, it's already too late for me today. Unfortunenately, I only got two naps of 30min & 45mins today. It's all my fault, I didn't put off his am nap this morning because I think he would sleep 45mins this morning. Maybe he slept too well last night. 30min am nap is all I got. And I made another mistake, I tried to put off his pm nap. His pm nap ends at 2:20. Do I need to give him a catnap or a super early bedtime 6:30. (His A time before bedtime is 4hr10 no matter what his pm nap's length is.) Catnap or early bedtime? What should I choose? It's so horrible today.

[Layla]

If it were me, I would do bedtime at 6pm!

Let me know how it goes...

[smum]

Hi Layla:

I followed you&Deb's suggestions to put him down early at 6:30pm. He woke up at 6:10am this morning although he had many hand stirs or rollings during 1-2AM,3-4:20AM, 5:10-5:30AM. I'm sure he was still sleeping and hope those stirs and rollings are just light sleep cycle.

BTW, he is difficult to fall asleep before 4hrs A time the past 2 week. He has difficulty to fall asleep in his pm nap, too. 2-3 weeks ago if his pm nap was only 45min/1hr, he may fall asleep at 3hr40min A time. I feel sleeping training and bad naps cause some overtiredness to him. Now his A time before bedtime is 4hr10min.

If I put off his am nap till 10am, shorten it to 30min and put him down for his pm nap 3hrs later, what if his pm nap is also 30min? (1:30-2:00)? Should I let him down at 6:10pm?

[Layla]

Smum - just wanted to see how things are going.

Sorry I didn't reply back straight away... I can't access the internet all that much at work and I was there fri & sat .