4 month old no naps & multiple night wakings

[anneis]

My little one is now 4 months old and for the last 12 days has gone from sleeping 6-9 hours at night in one sitting, to now going to sleep at midnight, and waking up every 2-3 hours to eat.  We are going insane and have no idea of why the sudden change!!!
Here is a bit of background on the last 3.5 months:
Going to bed between midnight-1 am
no naps during the day although tried, sometimes will have 30 min nap around 3:30 or 6:30
Was sleeping from 12am-7am, wake to feed and then back to bed until 10, even 12 at times.

We are very busy during the day and do lots of playing to tire her out as well as having the same night time routine with baths, songs and quiet time.  She is going to bed at around the same time as before but now she wakes up 2 hours later to eat, sleeps for 3, eats, and then back down for another 3-4 if we are lucky.  What am I dong wrong?

Thanks so much

[rob1lu2]

Hi Anneis!

Let's see if we can help you!

First off, it is SO typical of 4 month olds naps to go wonky. There is a sticky about it in the Naps Forum.

But can you post your schedule. I'm worried that I am confused about your routine...

Is she going to bed, for the night at midnight 1am? That's Wwwwaaaaayyyyyy too late for your LO. She should be going to bed at 7pm, if she's waking at 7am. LOs that age need 12 hours of sleep per night. So right off, if she is going to bed at midnight, I would say that you need to move her bedtime to 7pm. That's the reason she sleeps until 10 or 12. She's getting her 12 hours there. Is there any particular reason she goes to bed at midnight?

30 minute naps are indicative of being overtired, which she is if she's going to sleep at midnight. This will self correct in a few days if you start putting her down earlier.

Also LOs are sensitive to overstimulation. Doing so much activity during the day is actually counter productive. It makes an already OT baby more tired.

I would commit to a few days of not going out, keeping all activity low key (just sitting in her bouncey seat, going for walks in the stroller, laying under a mobile, let her suck on her hands and just chill out), plus put her down to bed at 7pm.

How do you get her to go back to sleep when she wakes? Can she go to sleep independently?

Could you post your EASY routine please? I think I can help you tweak it. And if there is a reason for her to be up that late, let me know and we'll see what we can do!

Thanks!
Lu

[anneis]

Hi!!  As I looked at the EASY stuff I think I really screwed my babies sched. up, if you could even call it a schedule.  The reason for the late bedtimes I think is all her, although we are a bit night owls.  I tried putting her to bed early in the beginning but she wouldn't sleep, would cry, and didnt seem at all tired.  She has been going to bed late since day 1 even in the hospital.  It used to be later like 3am.....I've so screwed up.  Anyways this is a schedule of hers of 2 days. Bare with me I hope its not too awful.  She is also not on solids yet, Ive tried but made her a bit constipated.
Wednesday, Oct. 31

Awake 11am
Feed 11:15
nap 1-3
feed 3:15
feed 4:45
feed 7pm
Bath 9pm
feed 10:15
feed 11:15 pm
feed 12am
Now Thursday Nov 1

feed 1:15am
still awake 1:45 and restless
sleep 2-5:30am
feed 5:30
sleep 6-8
feed
sleep 9-12:30pm
feed 12:45
feed 3:15
feed 6:45
nap 1 hr @8pm
feed 10:pm
feed 12am
Now friday

sleep 1-5am
feed
sleep6-9am
feed
930-1130 sleep
feed and awake until 3pm
nap 3-4:15

Sorry for the disorganization, this looks horrible now that I type it out.  She rarely has naps unless in the stroller or at grandmas, i've tried to make her have naps but she just cries or flips over and doesnt sleep.

When she does wake up I will try at first patting, then picking up and comforting and putting back down if settle.  If not she is usually hungry so I feed and she goes back to sleep.  She will sleep on her own in her own bed, she does wake herself up and make noises but has been able to go back to sleep.  I find though to at night before she goes to bed she eats until 30 min before she ends up sleeping....almost nursing her to sleep I guess.

[rob1lu2]

Hi Annieis,

Not to worry! Everything is fixable, as long as you want to fix it. There are a few things I can see that I think might help in the short term and then we can talk about a few long term things. From your avatar, she's beautiful, by the way.

First of all, I would recommend you put her on a 4 hour EASY. At her age she should be able to go 4 hours between feedings. And all of the feedings you are giving her right now are probably disrupting her. Is it possible that you are mistaking her tired/bored/sleepy/uncomfortable signs for hunger? I see you are feeding her sometimes an forty-five minutes to an hour since her previous feed. Let's work on stretching those times out slowly but surely. My girls were doing the same thing at this age - I had just started BWing. I was still feeding them every 3 hours and they started waking every hour on the hour at night. Once I adjusted them to a 4 hour EASY the problem corrected itself without any further intervention from me.

So your schedule should look a little more like this to begin:

11am Wake and E
11:30-12:30 Activity
1:00 Sleep/Nap
3:00 Wake and E
3:30-5:30 Activity
6:00 Sleep
8:00 Wake and E
Might need a catnap at 9:30 - only 30-45 minutes
Activity - bath, books, bottle, bed by 11:00

If you were going to DF her you would do it at 2/3am, which isn't great b/c it disrupts her sleep schedule. That's when you would start to get your 6 hours of sleep again.

It seems like your DD never got her days and nights straight. Most babies when they are still in hospital are all mixed up. We help them to figure out their days. You are going to have to do this now, if you want. The way my ped recommended that I do it when they were first born was to wake them every 2 hours (at that time they were newborn). And then after 10pm, just let them sleep until they woke to eat. Your daughter is no longer a newborn, so she'll be able to be awake longer and last longer between feedings.

You won't be able to do this overnight b/c she's a snacker now. But you should be able to do it gradually by distracting her with Activities. Again, these don't need to be over the top activities to begin. She's OT so she needs some low key activities.

Then eventually, you need to work on bringing that bed time back a little bit. You would do this by waking her earlier in the morning, fifteen minutes at a time, instead of letting her wake when she wants (which I assume is what you do now. It's what I do with my girls, let them wake when they want). So in a week or ten days or so, after she's caught up on her sleep you start bringing that morning wake time back fifteen minutes. I'd probably do it every two - three days, until you get to a number that works for you. Maybe 9am, since you and your partner are night owls. Or whatever is comfortable for you and for her.

I wouldn't start solids with her yet. I think she's too young. Especially if she got all plugged up! Let's work on the schedule first!

Do you BF or bottle feed? How much does she take or how long does she nurse at each feed? Does she take a pacifier?

What do you think?

Lu

[Bryony]

Hi Anneis - just wanted to pop in and say hi and welcome to the boards!  I agree with Lu, she has given you some great advice.  Definitely make changes a little at a time....

Have you seen the typical 4 hoursly EASY?  Two 1.5-2 hours naps and a catnap.

Sounds like she can go to sleep independently which is great news - that's really important!

Bryony

[anneis]

She is BF an does not take a pacifier unless I hold it while holding her....just spits it out and really has no interest in it.  She also feeds for about 30-40 min on one side.  I used to offer her the other but most of the time did not want it.  I also have another dumb question.  How do I make her have a nap at those designated times?  She actually did have a nap today but only for 1 hr at 1pm.  Do I just lay her down and hope for the best?  Thank you so much for the advice, I have reccommended to many friends and are in the process of finding me a copy of the book!!

Anneis

[psalmist]

Hi anneis,
The book will help you a lot. It doesn't seem like it makes sense but for a baby that doesn't sleep well during the day for naps will sleep less during the night. When my DS's get overly tired they fight falling asleep and just cry. The BW put baby on a routine EASY : Eat, Activity, Sleep and you time. Which is typically a 3 hour rotation. Which you will learn all about. So after your done feeding, playing and changing your babies diaper watch closely for signs of sleepiness, When you see the first yawn. Swaddle her and lay her in the crib with the lights down. A baby really needs lots of sleep. Got to go I will check back in later.

[rob1lu2]

Hi Anneis,

There are no dumb questions! You are barely starting out here and everything is new! You'll get the hang of it and then it will be second nature!

The way you get her to take naps at those times is just to decide to start. So you give yourself a start date - let's say this Saturday, or whenever it's good for you. When that day rolls around you decide what you want her wake up time to be - let's say 10am, and you wake her. You feed her and then you keep her awake for - let's say an hour and a half to start. Or as long as she can manage. You want to look for sleepy cues (yawning, rubbing her eyes, losing interest in toys or activity, turning away, etc.) to put her down, but you are also trying to extend her day time hours so that she'll sleep at night. It's going to be a very fine line that you'll walk to begin.

Then, when she seems sleepy, you put her down for a nap. Now you can't just throw her in the crib and hope for the best, you need to transition here. Maybe go into her room, turn down the lights, sit quietly in a chair for a few minutes, or read a story, whatever you want. And after a few minutes - 5 or more depending on what you've decided to do, you put her down for a nap.

Now if she's not used to this, she may fight you on it. And you'll need to be ready for that.

Has she typically gone to sleep independently? I think you had answered yes to this, but that she occasionally needs your help.

OK, so now, hopefully she's napping. You want to hope that she'll nap for 1.5 hours, but she may only nap for 45 minutes - that's very typical at this age. Right now we won't worry too much about that. You just want to establish a routine for her, which will take some getting used to.

So now you've done this...
10am wake and Eat
10:30-11:30 Activity
11:30-11:45 wind down
11:45 Sleep
1:15 Wake and Eat

Hopefully she's slept until 1:15 (or whatever). So you start all over again.

I wouldn't let her sleep more than 2 hours to begin. That's how you are going to try to get her to sleep at night. By limiting her day time sleep. But again, she's OT so this may take a while.

She may also get hungry b/c she is used to snacking. We are going to work on this too. She's proven she can go a stretch without eating, so we are going to distract her with Activity (remember nothing heavy duty, just easy going things - walks in the stroller, sitting in bouncey seat, reading books, etc.).

You'll repeat the above schedule again, something like this...

1:15 Wake and Eat (and by this time, she should be pretty hungry and want both sides. It may take a while for your breasts to adjust to the new way of feeding, since they are also snacker breasts, but they should readjust in a few days).
1:30-2:45 Activity
2:45 Wind down
3:00 Sleep
5:00 Wake and Eat
5:30-7:00 Activity/Wind down
7:15 Catnap (just 30-45 minutes here)
8:00 Wake and Eat
Activity - bath, massage, bottle, book and bed by
9:30/10:00 Sleep.

She may wake once in the night to eat - especially at first b/c she's used to snacking.

And then you'll want to gradually bring that waking time back so that her bedtime will be earlier. The more times they wake in the middle of the night, the more their sleep schedule gets out of whack and the more they wake up. It's a vicious cycle.

What do you think?

Lu

[Bryony]

Anneis

As ever, Lu has given you some great advice! I also wanted to suggest that you focus in A times, rather than nap times, if that makes sense - so focus on how long she's been awake for -and aim to have her in bed for her nap eg about 2hrs since she last woke (less if it was a short nap previously). So to do this you need to start your wind-down at about 1hr 45 mins. Obviously if she starts looking tired before this then go for it earlier.  Getting the right A time for your LO can take a bit of trial and error, but I imagine 2hrs is a good starting point at 4 months old, and you can adjust up or down as needed.

HTH!
Bryony

[anneis]

Well thank you for all the great advice!!  We just went on a trip to BC and decided to try it out there and we did okay, with a lot of trial and error, naps sometimes and other days none.  I have found the most success with getting her feedings farther apart, between 3.25 and 4 hours depending on the day.  I definitely see the tired signs now as before I was feeding her instead when she was just really tired.  We just had our first day yesterday of 2 1.5 hour naps....The one problem we are still running into is the inconsistent night wakings.  Sometimes she will be down for 3 hours and then awake, and other times she lasts a good 4-5 hours before waking up.  I have tried the pu/pd just to make sure, but she cries and eats madly when I do feed her.  Is she not getting enough before she goes to bed and is that why she is possibly waking up?

She is not yet on any cereal yet although I am considering it, probably before she is 6 months old.  thanks again

Annes

[Bryony]

Wow, well that sounds like progress!  Well done

Now once naps improve, it can take a few days or a week before things settle down into a new "normal" so I would carry on as you are for another 5 days or so before thinking about changing anything else. 

In terms of hunger - what is your current routine for feeds etc?  Do you really think she is hungry in the night or is she using it for comfort?  If you are going to use PU/PD you have to be sure she's not hungry - and then use PU/PD all the way and not give in and feed her otherwise there is no point in putting both of you through the stress of PU/PD       Does she respond to shh/pat?  Many babies still respond to this at 4 months in which case this is an easier option.

I wouldn't be in too much of a hurry to start cereal, personally - milk is far more important and has more calores...

It sounds as though you are doing really really well - and to do all that while on holiday as well! 

Bryony

[rob1lu2]

Glad to hear things are going well! Keep it up!

Lu

[anneis]

Well I do think shes hungry, as I most of the time pat her, or give her a quick hug and cuddle and then put her back down.  When she is eating, now around 5am, shes madly hungry since the last time she ate around 10pm.  The shh/pat has worked and actually did last night as she woke up 30 min after putting her down, but I think it was more scared and didnt't know where she was, and it worked like a charm only after about 2 minutes.  The last couple nights I have been giving her a bottle of formula as her last feed instead of BF as shes been doing a number on them and I wanted to give them a break.  She hasn't minded at all, and although alert when done and burped, she is not as sleepy as she is when bf before bedtime.  Time wise she also eats the bottle in 1/3 of the time it would take her to eat from me.  Is this a bad habit of giving her formula at bedtime?

She is settling herself to bed, after I sit with her for 5min....and 10 min later she is sleeping.  Thanks again for all the advice!!

anneis

[Bryony]

Glad things are goig well!  In terms of the formula - it's not a problem from her point of view, but my only concern would be in terms of your supply - are you pumping instead?

Bryony

[anneis]

I used to pump a lot in the mornings when she used to sleep 8-9 hours at a time, but that has stopped since her feedings seemed to be so close in the am and it feels like I have nothing to pump.  I have tried a few times but barely an ounce comes out and it taked almost 30 minutes.  The only time I will pump may be early in the am if I feel really full and she is not up yet, or if one of the grandmas has her for a few hours then I will pump.