Author Topic: EASY going sooo wonky for 9 month old - please help!!!  (Read 4333 times)

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Offline bethanys mummy

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EASY going sooo wonky for 9 month old - please help!!!
« on: November 30, 2007, 12:36:44 pm »
Hi

I seem to be on allot of boards with this one......

About a month ago my lo was up allot in the night (quick to settle 5-10 mins but broken sleep) and slept for about 12 hours. She then had fairly typical 3 hour ish A times (1st one a little shorter, 2nd a little longer) with 2 x 1,20 naps. So about 14.5 hrs +, with broken nights

We used PUPD and successfully got her sleeping through the night (MASSIVE  ;D)  - it took a while because she had 2 colds and a strong will! Her night time sleep dropped to about 11 hours which I felt was expected because she is older and because she now has continuous sleep - she still wakes but settles herself within a few mins

But now she is really resisting naps and bedtime and I can't work out if its OT or that difficult time pre 2 to 1 switch. She basically cries whilst wandering round the cot . It does not help that she is a habitual short napper, I have previously used pressure at the jolts for those times when she does not settle (she settles herself about half the time) from about 4 months old but think its time to stop this - am planning to try PUPD to see if this helps as I am a convert (although i know it is less reliable for nap extension)

Earlier this week, when she started being restless I tried to stretch her A times but I THINK she got worse, we were out and about on the Tues and she did not have much sleep at all. Last night she only did 10.5 hours and seemed tired this am

 Her cues seem to have disappeared out of the window and its just hard because I dont have a "normal" to compare it to as everything has been upside down the last month with PUPD and the colds

I aiming for:

A 7.30 - 10.30  - 3 hours
S 10.30 - 12  - 1.5 hours
A 12-3.45 - 3 hrs, 45
S 3.45-5pm - S - 1,15 hours
A 5-8pm, asleep shortly after - 3 hours +

So about 11-11.5 at night and 2.5 in the day, about 13.5 hours

I am trying to preserve the am nap and the get up time because her am nap is the most consistent and the one she self extends the most, and also because if I can gradually reduce nap 2 then this helps fit around the school run....

After all this my questions are......!
- do you think this routine is ok
- any views on whether she is OT verses pre 2 to 1 nap switch hassle??

Thanks soooo much

E x
Emma


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Offline momofclaire

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Re: EASY going sooo wonky for 9 month old - please help!!!
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2007, 03:39:15 am »
Hi,
I am sorry your post has gone unanswered.

I doubt that you are looking at the 2-1 transition yet. 
Have you tried a littler earlier of a bedtime. 
I would try to get her down for the second nap around 3:14/30 and then getting her in bed a little early.
That routine doesn't look bad though so if it is working for you then go with it.
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Offline vadensmommy

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Re: EASY going sooo wonky for 9 month old - please help!!!
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2007, 14:07:06 pm »
Wanted to drop in and say hey!  Marking my spot so I can keep an eye on you!


Offline bethanys mummy

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Re: EASY going sooo wonky for 9 month old - please help!!!
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2007, 12:12:20 pm »
I wanted to say thanks soo much for your feedback, things are still wonky here becuse she has got yet another cold.... but glad you think the basic routine is ok - trying to keep a log of total sleep at the moment. Will continue any issues on the naps board

thanks again :-*
Emma


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Offline vadensmommy

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Re: EASY going sooo wonky for 9 month old - please help!!!
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2007, 20:59:00 pm »
Hey Emma,
I hope you are getting some good info from the naps ladies.  I am sorry I haven't been vigilant in checking in on you as we too have been battling illness - 104.4 degree fever that landed us in the emergency room.  I hope your precious lo is feeling better very soon!

I will say this about your routine, and this is purely based in my experiences so far with DD. 
I have found that dd has started needing a longer A time in the morning - at least 3.5hrs A time right at the same age as your lo.  She was about the same age 3wks ago around Thanksgiving here.  I was able to stay home with her for the holiday for a few days and finally figured this out.  She needed more A time in the morning, AND I had to start limiting her am nap to 1hr in order for her to start taking a longer and better pm nap.  And ultimately, the pm nap is the one we want to preserve, because the AM nap will be the one that eventually goes away, and a better pm nap helps prevent OT before bedtime which, of course, can cause more NW, and EW's. 

The other thing that I've had to look at is her hunger.  I found that DD started waking early from her pm nap because of hunger -her A times were so long, that with a 4hr EASY, the E time was coming right after she was to be asleep.  So I started waiting about 30min in the morning before feeding her bottle, and that helps avoid the colliding sleep and eat times.  I also started splitting the 3rd bottle of the day -she got as much as she could hold before the pm nap, and if any was left, then she got the rest when she woke up, before suppertime.  So the time between the typical 11am bottle and 3pm bottle was shortened -she still gets 11am bottle, but gets part of the 3pm bottle more like 2pm and the rest around 4pm when she wakes from the nap.

I hope all this makes sense, and gives you some ideas on things that might work for your lo!  Hope she feels better soon - this is such a hard time of year for illness!  Good luck!


Offline bethanys mummy

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Re: EASY going sooo wonky for 9 month old - please help!!!
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2007, 12:19:14 pm »
Hi

many thanks for posting - esp with your lo so ill, hope all better now

Well now she is coming out of the cold she is battling sleep again - so I am starting to think maybe she is not tired enough for her nap. I would have thought that A times would reduce during a cold so perhaps she can go further, just not sure, keep on jumping back and forth with my thoughts, but obviously must do things gradually

Am actually hoping to drop the pm nap for lots of reasons
- her am nap is her most consistent to extend -
-if this nap goes wrong I can still catch up on the pm nap
-if she develops the pm nap it will clash with the school pick up run whereas if she develops the pm nap then she can have a quick second nap after school and I can spend time with DD1
 
so at present I let her nap in the am (it thrills me if she extends this given her short nap habits!) - usually 1.5 hours but I let her have longer with her cold. Then I limit her second nap if need be to protect bedtime

Thanks for the thoughts re hunger. Dont think its an issue at present as she is not very hungry after her naps but think I will need to add a snack before am nap soon and of course as it gets later and later

Emma
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Offline vadensmommy

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Re: EASY going sooo wonky for 9 month old - please help!!!
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2007, 16:27:33 pm »
Sounds good,
yeah with all this illness, dd's A times have definitely been shorter, and I might have to encourage her to start staying awake longer once she is feeling better, which she seems to be getting there, just will take some time.  At least the fever has broken! 

Your plans sound good with keeping the am nap.  I have found with my dd, that if she has a long am nap and short pm, she get OT before bedtime, and it causes more NW and EW's, but that is just her!  So I hope this routine will get her back on an even keel for you.  Also for us, dd is at a sitter's in the morning who isn't very consistent with the am nap, so it will be a TON easier for me to get her to take a good pm nap than to have her nap well in the am.  So everything has to be tailored to each family and existing routine, doesn't it?  We've battled our own nap battles with the sitter and dd - early last week, the sitter decided dd didn't need to be put down for an am nap since she only slept 45min anyways.  WRONG, she had 5 NW that night.  Explained to the sitter who did give her the am nap the next day, and that night she only had 1 NW.  SOOOooo hopefully, we're on the same page again!

I can imagine it is hard to work around your older dd's schedule too.  Good luck, and I hope you find a combination that works!!


Offline bethanys mummy

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Re: EASY going sooo wonky for 9 month old - please help!!!
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2007, 21:02:53 pm »
Thanks for your help and thoughts, its true that I have to keep the A times shorter later on as she only has a hour to see her through from say 1pm to 8 pm, its all a juggle isn't it

Arrggh

now the cold is over I can feel us slipping back again - she is fighting her sleep at nap and bed times and she is stopping self extending

I really dont know what to do:

- the majority of people follow a routine like above or slightly less ie A time of about 3 ish hours and naps of 1hr and 1.5 hours so part of me tells me that I should cut A times back
- but when she had her cold she was doing A times of about 3,20-3.45 (we had family commitments..) and she was going down like a dream, self extending and even going beyond 1.5 hours for her naps which is a rarity for her. Given that her cold would have made her more tired then I start to think she should have A times of at least the 3,30. Tried that today and she fought the 1st nap for 10 mins (so A time ended up at 3, 40) and the second nap for so long that I then had to cut the nap really short to get her to bed

Dont know what to do!!! Feel as though I have to stick with these A times for another couple of days to give them a proper go, but then??? extend even further to compensate for the cold??

Just really sad that, after a few days of her going down so easily and staying asleep...we are going backwards.........

Going to post this on the naps post too as not sure if its EASY or naps, but mods, please feel free to shut one post as appropriate......
Emma


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Offline vadensmommy

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Re: EASY going sooo wonky for 9 month old - please help!!!
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2007, 21:45:00 pm »
Hey Emma!
I read over your other post on the naps boards too, but I think I'll keep responding here, because there is a bit more info I think here.  I can't remember if I referred you to the 2-1 nap switch link or not, but there are a few ways that lo's start to consolidate their day time sleep in preparation to get to just 1 nap:
1) They start fighting the morning nap, but go down better for the pm nap with a shorter am nap
2) They take the a really good morning nap, but fight the afternoon nap

I've found that dd sort of did both - she would fight the am nap, but once down, took a long good nap, and would then fight the pm nap as well.  I got tired of fighting, and that is when we were able to figure out she needed more A time for that first A time of the day, AND I had to shorten the nap to 1hr in order for her to take a decent pm nap (1.5-2hrs) AND for the pm nap not to be too late. 

So given what our experience has been, I think you are on the right track with needing more A times, esp. in the am before the am nap, although she probably will need those gradual increments to increase like they've suggested in your Naps post.  At that age, dd needed the 3.5hr A time in the morning, a short nap, and then more like 3hr A time btwn naps, and sometimes even a little last after the pm nap and before bed - that was when I read her cues the most, otherwise I went by the clock. 

As far as wind down goes, that age was also REALLY hard for us.  I've noticed that our wind down has grown and evolved over the months as dd gets more active and older.  IF I get her A time right, I've found that the best wind down for us is:
Changing diaper
Turn out lights/close blinds/curtains
Sit in rocker (we rock) while I hold her facing outwards and sing our sleep song (Amazing Grace-we sing this for just about every sleep time, although recently it's been more christmas carols as well, and she still gets the idea that it is time for sleep :) )
I have to keep on hand on her crotch basically to keep her from wriggling down, and the other on her chest to keep her reclined, otherwise she'll keep trying to sit up and play in my lap.  She may fuss or wriggle a little bit, but if we're really in the right nap window, then this goes pretty smoothly.  I sing for a bit, and once she seems relaxed and tired I'll pick her up and put her over my shoulder.  If she lays her head down on my shoulder, and puts her hands down under her belly, I know she's ready to go to bed.  I typically quit rocking and singing here, and hold for no more than a minute, then into the crib she goes.  Most times she'll go right to sleep if she is good and relaxed by this.  If she fights any of the above, I'll either give her more quiet A time if she doesn't seem tired (and has been well rested up until this point) and then try again, of I just do more rocking and singing with her facing outwards if I think she is OT. 

If nothing else, I hope this gives you some ideas!  Let us know how things go for you!!!


Offline bethanys mummy

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Re: EASY going sooo wonky for 9 month old - please help!!!
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2007, 22:12:30 pm »
Thanks so much for your reply. Will keep on going................

Love your wind down routine - although the switch to Christmas carols made me laugh ;D, it seems you have a real knowledge of when she is sleepy and what to do to relax her, thats great

Will let you know how it goes and thanks again.... :-*
Emma


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Offline vadensmommy

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Re: EASY going sooo wonky for 9 month old - please help!!!
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2007, 01:54:52 am »
The wind down has really been a lot of trial and error recently.  As she has gotten more mobile - crawling, pulling up, being able to sit up on her own, things got really hard for wind down, because before then it had been pretty short - less than 5 minutes.  I had read some other moms needing to do a longer wind down - 15-20min once their lo's got more active, so I started playing with what we were doing and really tried to not rush the process of her relaxing.  I guess it has to be hard for them to go from crawling around and playing to being relaxed enough to go to sleep, and I finally realized I had to help her more to make that transition.

Good luck, keep me posted on what you find that works for y'all! 


Offline bethanys mummy

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Re: EASY going sooo wonky for 9 month old - please help!!!
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2007, 20:49:37 pm »
Hi there

well we are getting somewhere with naps... ;D I am finding that if she has a first A time of about 3, 40 ish (and a nice wind down) then she is going down better, self extending and sleeping for about 1,20 (all good for her). Bit of a shock that she could go so long, but so be it!!

But things do go downhill a bit from there. Routine is something like:

A 7.40 - 11.20  = 3,40
S 11.20 - 12.40 = 1,20 (wake her up after 1,30)
A 12.40 - 4,10 = 3,30
S 4,10 - 5,10 - 1 hour
A 5,10 - 8 feed, put down about 8,15

Putting her down for her 2nd nap is a bit variable re success but this is an average. But then she fights and fights going to sleep at bedtime until about 8.45 ish, not good at all

So I am stumped as to what is wrong. Seem to need to stretch her A time in order to get her to sleep properly for her 1st nap but then it all goes wrong at night. UT / OT??

Today we went christmas shopping and I was worried about what sleep she would have. I was then delighted that she had 45 mins on the way there about 11 ish then 1.5 hours later on from 3-4.30. I thought this may be a good way to check if she was OT because if she went to bed at 8 then this would be a neat 3.5 hrs later which seems average. She fought sleep for another hour, crying so hard

Its so heartbreaking to hear her cry so much every night. Cant ever seem to get night sleep + naps + bedtime right. Dont know if its routine based or wind down based. She is a baby thats always on the go but we then have a nice quiet bf for 20 mins before sleep but any other wind down ideas appreciated

Otherwise - PUPD?????

I am so heartbroken that she is crying every night, I dread it all the time
Emma


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Offline vadensmommy

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Re: EASY going sooo wonky for 9 month old - please help!!!
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2007, 03:11:06 am »
Hey dear!
It really does sound like you are making some headway.  I know a lot more of this will continue to be trial and error for what SHE needs.  All I can advise you on is what I've seen with my own daughter, but that might not be what yours will need of course :)

If my daughter does a day like yours did the other day where she takes a longer am nap and a shorter pm nap, she is overtired by bedtime and can be harder to put down.  So that might be what is happening, and it might not.  One way to test would be to go ahead and cut the am nap short (wake her at 1hr) and see how long of an A time she can do between am and pm nap-will probably be about the same as the 1st A time (strange since this usually is the shortest, but with my dd, they are about the same now since I am waking her from the am nap if we're home together) and see how she goes down for the pm nap, and then of course the real test would be bedtime.  And, probably goes without saying, give it a couple of consistent days before deciding if it works or not. 

I know that with Caitlyn's schedule it is hard to get Bethany to take a good pm nap, but if it solves some of this bedtime drama you're having to deal with, it might be worth it to revamp a little bit of the routine.  I don't know how easy it would be for you to do that, but again, if it's less headaches at bedtime  :-\   

I hope you can find something that will work for you!!!  I don't know if what I've suggested will even be feasible for you, but I hope you find it - let me know how it goes!!!
Lots of HUGS!! :-*


Offline bethanys mummy

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Re: EASY going sooo wonky for 9 month old - please help!!!
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2007, 11:42:34 am »
Thanks for your support, much appreciated ;D, just desparate to find a "normal" routine as I go back to work in Feb  :'( and would like to be able advise the people looking after her as to what is best!!

So after battling sleep yesterday and going to sleep just before 9  :o she woke at just after 7.....

I know what you mean about cutting back the am nap but  the pm nap really would clash with the school run and I know from experience that the little tinker wont stay asleep in the pushchair during that, its so noisy

I must try to concentrate on the fact that even since I started this post things have improved - down easier for naps and self extending, a miracle in itself believe me after all this time that I have been extending her naps.... its just so heartbreaking that she cries so much every night when she is so jolly all day

So need to just finally work on that bit after the 1st nap........

Interesting what you said about her 2nd A time - so what does (did?) your routine look like at this time - with x2 A times of 3.5+ hours it must be hard to fit it all in??

Thanks again - meant to say its a lovely picture you've got there
Emma


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Offline bethanys mummy

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Re: EASY going sooo wonky for 9 month old - please help!!!
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2007, 11:45:51 am »
oh, and any thoughts on a different bed time wind down as you are so good at it!!! as i say i would have thought a 20 min bf in a darkened room would help but apparently not..... :(
Emma


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