8-Month-Old Short & Inconsistent Naps, So frustrated, please help!!!

[smum]

Brief History of DS’s sleeping problems
Hi, everyone. Although it’s Christmas Season, I feel so sad & frustrated. I’m a first time mom and my DS is 8mo7d. Since his birth, he never sleeps for hrs he should. Because of my ignorance, we haven’t had a routine until his 5th month. Although he finally could sleep thru the night (I’m so happy), he had early waking and inconsistent short nap problems. He also cannot fall asleep unassisted. These problems make it so difficult to maintain a routine from 7am to 7pm. I try so hard to have a fixed feeding schedule & a fixed bedtime around 7pm. However, I didn’t know how to extend his short nap. So I try my best to control his awaking time to 2 hrs. So at his 5-6mo, he generally had sleep of 13.5-14.5 hrs a day, including 10.5hrs of night time sleep and 3-3.5 hrs of daytime sleep. And he had a 45 morning nap, an inconsistent 45min-1.5hr afternoon nap and a 40min-1hr catnap.  I always cut his morning nap to 45min according to a book hoping his afternoon nap can be 2 hrs. However, it never happens. And I couldn’t let him drop his catnap since he has early waking and short afternoon nap problems.

Regarding his short nap
From 3-6 mo, he often had 30-45 mins afternoon nap if we couldn’t help him go to sleep again. I’ll breastfed him or my DH will try to rock him. We also tried sh-pat although I didn’t know it’s a tool until I bought Tracy’s book at Nov. Because of BW, I didn’t cut his morning nap anymore. From 11/29-12/6, he had quite good naps, including two 1.5hr nap plus a 30-40min catnap. However, at 12/7 pm12:00, DS cried very loudly because his head bumped into the pillow next to the bumper. He didn’t fall back to sleep until 2:11am with our help. Since then, he began to have inconsistent nap time again. And the length of his nap time became shorter and shorter. During the past 3 days the length of his naptime totals to less than 2hr, consisting of two 45 naps and one 30-45 catnap. I don’t know why. I guess it could possibly be related to (1) OT (2) losing the ability of falling asleep independently (3) improper routine (4) night time sleep increase? (5) white noise machine. So I list DS’s routine below, hoping many experienced moms could give me some advice.

Now I want to try w2s to lengthen his sleep time. Because he is 24 pounds, using PU/PD to increase his nap time is almost an impossible mission to me. I tried it three times, only one time successful and DS fell asleep near his feeding time and slept through it. So I’d rather try w2s to make it. According to my observance, DS has difficulties in transitions of sleep cycle. It is the mainly reason to cause him wake up earlier. He has so many possible waking marks. I don’t know if I need to do w2s at EVERY possible waking mark including 45min, 1hr, 1hr20min, 1hr30min. What is the appropriate timing? Does the timing differ in lengthening nap time and night time?

6am/7:00am Wake    (Early Waking): From 4:00am to 6:00am, DS has very light sleep. After shortly waking at anytime between 5:00-5:30, he continues changing his positions. So I don’t know if he is still asleep or not. Around 6:00, he’ll be fully awake. Then he begins to play on his bed. Sometimes he’ll fall asleep 1hr later around 6:50-7:00. I usually wake him up before 7:30. But if he doesn’t fall back to sleep, I’ll let him have his morning nap at 9:00am

7:00/7:30                Bottle 5oz
8:30                          Solids 2-3oz
9:00/ 9:30/9:45         Morning Nap 45mins-1.5hr, now the length is 50mins. The nap time will be
                                 changed to the time he wakes up and how long it takes him to fall asleep.
11:30                    Bottle  6oz
12:30                        Solids 3-4oz
1:00/1:30                  Afternoon Nap 45mins-1hr20min
3:00                 Bottle 6.5oz
4:30/4:40/5:00       A possible catnap 40min; If the length of his nap time before the catnap totals to
                                 more than 2hrs, he usually fails to have the catnap although it will take me
                                 45mins to 1hr to let him have that.  If the length of his nap time before the
                                 catnap totals to  less than 2hr, I think I MUST let him have it to protect his night
                                 time sleep although I’m not sure about this considering his age.   
5:30                          Solid
6:00                          Bath
6:30                          Bottle 6.5oz
7:15/7:30                  Bedtime                   


Regarding his falling asleep
At 5-6mo, I let him sleep on his tummy at nap time and tried CIO in desperate hoping he could sleep on his own. It worked although I felt so sorry when I heard my baby cry. My DS has had very strong Moro Reflex and it disturbed his sleep notoriously. However, because he refused swaddling, letting him sleep on his tummy to control his flailing arms and legs is my only option then. At his 7mo, because he could crawl, his sleep was messed up by his new-gained mobility. When I let him sleep on his tummy, he begins to crawl ever after, he even turns his head smiling at me, no signs of settling down. When I let him sleep on his back, he’ll flail his arms and legs several mins and try to turn over and crawl again. I ever tried not to intervene and let him crawl several times. The result was he got OT and cranky. I cannot help but hold him to help him calm down and put him on the bed after he relaxes. He could remain immovable for a while, but he’ll try to turn over and crawl again. So I need to grab him back, hold him again, try to let him turn to his side and PRESS his arms and legs for a while until he won’t move for a while. Then he usually can go to sleep on his own. The whole process takes me 35min, even 1hr.

Welcome advice & TKS for all your help.

[vadensmommy]

Hey there smum!
So sorry to hear that you are having frustrations!!
I hope that everybody here can lend you some advice that will help!
First thing I see from looking at your routine, is that his A times are still pretty short for a baby his age.  Most babies by this age (not all, but most) are only taking 2 naps, and are able to stay awake for longer periods of time than what your baby is doing.  The first line of attack for you, I think, would to get his EASY in a better working order, and I think that will probably go a long way on helping you with your nap frustration.  If he continues to take short naps once his A times are a bit longer, then w2s may work better.

At 8mo, an average A time would probably be closer to 3hrs, give or take a little bit.  This age can be a real booger as far as sleep cues go.  Many babies (mine included) start showing fewer sleepy cues as they get more mobile - who has time to sleep when there is so much more to explore??  If I woke up in your shoes tomorrow, I would continue with starting his day around 7/7:30 as you have been doing, bottle feed, solid feed, and let him play.  If you start to see tired cues, go ahead and begin your wind down, and then put him down for his nap.  The first A time of the day is often the shortest because the first nap is often an extension of night time sleep.  `Af

[vadensmommy]

Sorry!
DD was trying to help me, and hit the post button!!!
They are just so funny sometimes aren't they?

As I was saying . . .
Around this age, I also found that sticking to a 4hr routine (i.e. milk feeds every 4 hours) got a bit more complicated, so I started waiting about 30min in the morning before giving dd her first bottle
What our EASY looked like around that age -

A 7
E 7:30 bottle
A 7-10 solids here
S 10-11 or 11:30 - I'd wake her at 11:30 if she didn't wake herself.  As she's gotten older, I have limited her am nap to no more than an hour

E 11:30 bottle
A 11:30-2:30 or 3 -(lunch here) sometimes after a good AM nap she could stay awake longer
S 2:30-4:30 - I never let her sleep more than 2 hours here, unless she took a bad am nap-interfered with night sleep

E 4:30 - this is really 5hrs since last feeding.  I also found with dd that she was waking early from her PM nap because she was hungry, but was still sleepy, so I started splitting this bottle.  I'd give her as much as she wanted right before the pm nap (making sure NOT to feed her to sleep) and then let her finish the rest after the pm nap and that worked really well for us.
A 4:30-7/7:30-depending on tired cues.
S 7ish - this varied up to 30min, depending on tired cues.  She often had a short A time here as well, but that isn't what all babies do.

I hope that gives you some ideas of what you would like to tweak.  For pu/pd to work, the baby really has to be on the right routine for their age.  Keep us posted on your progress or if you have other questions!

[smum]

Hi Vadensmom:

Tks for the advice. I think my first obstacle is how to let him wake up at 7:00am. He has had early waking for at least 4 months. Although I moved his bedtime from 7:00pm to 7:30pm(if he has a catnap.), he couldn't sleep until 7am. In fact, I'm not sure about the "accurate" time he wakes up. One thing I know for sure is that he'll wake up anywhere from 5:00-5:30, then he starts  crawling with his belly and keeps changing positions. (He is accustomed to sleeping on his tummy.) Each position lasts for a while. And there are two roughly patterns about his waking time. Sometimes he sleeps until 6:40, then becomes fully awake and doesn't fall back to sleep. Sometimes he becomes fully awake at 6:00, plays for an hr or so, then falls back to sleep at 6:45-7:00. I usually secretly check him at 7:00am. If he is still asleep, I'll let him sleep until 7:15 or 7:30. Since I don't know what time he gets up, the first A time is hard to measure. For example, today he waked up at 6:40. His dad began the morning nap process at 8:40. From 6:40 to 8:40, he crawled a lot, even stood up supporting with the bed rail. In less than 1 min, he fell asleep. (unheard of) I want to move his morning nap til 9:30, even 10:00. However, considering his early waking and poor sleeping quality between 5,6ish, 9:45 seems to be the limit he could do if he wakes up at 7:30. If he wakes up at 6ish and doesn't fall back to sleep, I cannot help but set his morning nap at 9:00. Now his A time is generally 2.5hr to 3hr. I usually let him have his nap around 9:00 and 1:00. Today his morning nap lasted for 70min (8:40am to 9:50am). He waked up at the 35mins mark, i.e.2:05pm, in his afternoon nap. I cannot  help but picked up him and held him from 2:05pm-2:45pm. Then I put him on the bed and he slept until 3:05pm. He doesn't cry when he wake earlier in the nap. He just crawls ever after. So PU/PD is not useful in extending his nap since he dosn't cry. I often suffer the 35min or 45min intruder in his afternoon nap. If he can sleep through it, the next waking mark would be 1hr 20min. The catnap becomes a headache again today. If I don't let him have that, I'm afraid he would be OT until his bedtime 7:00/7:30 since the A time will be 4hrs. If he fails to have catnap or if I want to drop his catnap forever, should I make his bedtime earlier to 6:30? And does the schedule need to be shifted 30mins earlier? (6:30 or 7:00 first bottle?) Sleeping 12hrs at night seems to be impossible to him and becomes a dream for me. Do I need to improve his night time sleep first by w2s and then tackle the nap problems? I'm so confused. We actually tried w2s two days at 4:30am and one day at 4:00am. Last night we didn't do it. And his sleeping patterns hasn't changed much yet. I feel his night time sleep is 11hrs at most, mostly it is still 10-10.5hrs. I'm afraild if I drop his catnap, he'll only get 12.5hrs and enter into the OT cycle. How should I do?

[KathyM]

I agree with vadensmommy, his awake times are too short for his age. My 8 month old dd does 2.75 hours between wake up time and 1st nap, 3 hours between 1st nap and 2nd nap and 4 hours between 2nd nap and bed. I hear what you are saying about it being hard to tell what time he woke up, but I would try to stretch him a bit and see if he'll nap better for you. When my dd wakes at the 35 or 45 minute mark, it almost always means that her awake time wasn't long enough.
Make sure that if you try something new you give it time for your lo to switch over to a new routine. It might take a bit, but if you have a better schedule, hopefully a lot of the pieces will fall into place.

[smum]

Hi Vadensmom & Kathy:

 Thank you for your advice. I agree I need to adjust my schedule a little bit. When I look at my sleep log, I find that my DS won't have a catnap if he already has nap time for 160mins. For example, from 12/9, he usually has 70 mins morning nap and 90 mins afternoon nap. When I try to give him a catnap, it won't happen before 5:30. So I just give up and end in moving the bedtime earlier to 7:00. When he has a short 45mins morning nap and 90 mins afternoon nap, he'll take a 45mins catnap,  but the bedtime also ends up later at 7:30. I think I might have the following options & hope you can give me some more suggestions.
(1)  try to extend his morning nap from 70mins to 90mins. (from 9:00-10:30) Then 3hrs later, try to let him have his afternoon nap for 90mins. (I also need to do w2s at 45min & 1hr20min marks.) Then from 3:00pm to 7:00pm, I don't give him any catnap and try to let him have earlier bedtime before or at 7:00pm. However, will 4hrs A time be too long for DS?
(2) CUT his morning nap from 70 mins to 60mins. (9:30 to 10:30) Then 2.5hrs later at 1:00, let him have his afternoon nap & try to extend it to 2hr. Then no catnap from 3:00 to 7:00.
(3) Remain the same: let him have 70min morning nap (9:30 to 10:40) & 90mins afternoon nap (1:30 to 3:00). At the same time, do w2s to extend his night time sleep. But will 160 mins nap time be too short for my DS? And do I need to tackle his early waking problem?

[KathyM]

Personally, I never have any success extending naps and I end up really frustrated...and I have a 3 year old to deal with too. So I would choose option 3 and try to stay as consistent as possible. Maybe then he will extend his naps and/or night time sleep on his own. Just my 2 cents worth....

[smum]

Today I feel so frustrated again. Sam only slept for 20mins in his morning nap (9:10-9:30) It took us so long to help him sleep again (11:10-12:00), His afternoon nap only lasts for 30min. I become so confused. Not sure of what time he gets up in the morning. I heard his voice at 5ish. Now he seems to be able to hold only 2.5hr A time. I wonder if I should let him have nap 1 at 8:40, nap 2 at 12:40, and a catnap at 4:40. He seems unable to fall sleep again at 5ish. I don't know if I should keep the 7pm to 7am schedule or move to 6pm to 6am schedule? I feel so hurt and worried. Although it's holiday, I don't have time for myself. I almost use all my time to make he sleep longer. Should I move his bedtime earlier or later?

[vadensmommy]

Hey there smum!
Try not to be too discouraged!  He isn't doing any of this on purpose to make life hard on you!  He is just learning how to do this whole routine thing.  Keep with it, it will get easier I promise!!

I completely agree with KathyM on extending naps - it rarely worked for us either - getting the correct A time was much more critical in dd having a good nap.  Knowing when he wakes up does sound like it is being a bit tricky.  I will say this - I think most babies have a bit more restless sleep in the morning, but it doesn't mean that they aren't still sleeping.  And, most babies start to stir and come out of deeper sleep 30 minutes before their typical E time.   S

Something that I did back when dd was much younger - like 5mo - I made sure I had a really set first E of the day, and did my best not to feed dd before that time.  So our perfect start to the day was 7am, so I didn't feed her a bottle before that time (unless she obviously dying of hunger).  Another mom I've chatted with also recommended having a firm first E and S of the day - so sticking with the same time for the first bottle AND the first nap based on the IDEAL wake up time rather than the ACTUAL wake up time.  I never actually tested the theory, but it made sense - thoughts were that, if you continue to move the first nap forward in relation to an early wake, your baby will need an earlier bedtime and just perpetuate the cycle of early wakings.  So, that means, if you followed that advice you would do your first milk feeding  at 7am, and have his first nap at 9:45 or 10am, no matter how early he woke up, but you would need to wake him by 7 if he were sleeping later to keep on track.  If he took a good 70-90min nap and wakes happy, I wouldn't worry about extending.  If he wakes earlier than that, and is grumpy, then you can try to extend it with pu/pd (but again, that hasn't worked for many of us).  Then I would go for the next nap at around 2:30 or so, and hope for a good 1.5-2hr nap time, so he might wake at 4 or 4:30, and he should be good to go and not need the catnap, and be able to make it to a 7 or 7:30pm bedtime.

Hope that makes sense!  Post back if you need clarification!

[smum]

Hi Vadensmom:

Tks for advice. I think the trickest nap to me is the morning nap. I see many moms say if a nap only lasts for 20-30 mins, then lo is OT. That's why I dare not move his morning nap beyond 9:30. Ideally, if lo can wake up at 7:00, then a morning nap at 9:30 even 10:00 is reasonable to a 6-9mo old. However, if my DS wakes up at 5:00-5:30, how can he stay up for 4hrs even 4.5hrs AND not become OT? I think my main obstacle is still the early waking if I want to follow 7:00am to 7:00pm routine. These days I still not sure about what time his bedtime should be if he can only sleep 10hrs at night. If he goes to bed at 7:30, then his first wake up time will usually be around 5:30. If he doesn't fall back to sleep, a morning nap from 8:30 would be his limit. DS never has 20-30 mins morning nap before until recently. That's why I wonder if he is OT when he has his morning nap. Last night I let him go to bed at 6:40pm because his nap yesterday totals to less than 2hrs again and his schedule already was messed up. He finished his afternoon nap around 3:00pm.(30 mins only) So I didn't let him have a catnap and set his bedtime at 6:30. He fell asleep at 6:40pm last night. This morning I didn't know the accurate time he got up. I just made a guess and followed his sleeping signs. I let him have his morning nap at 8:10. (I think he woke up aournd 4:30-5:00.) To my surprise, he slept for 1hr20min. Then he had his afternoon nap 3hrs later for 1hr20min from 12:30 and a 35mins catnap from 4:15. He had 3hr15 nap today. If I set his bedtime at 7:30, he wakes up at 5:30, will 3.5hr A time from the time he wakes up too long for him ? Do I need to stick to 9:00/9:30/10:00 morning nap time if it causes him OT and let him only has 20-30 monring nap? I know many babies can afford 3 even 3.5hrs A time. My lo only can afford 2.5-3hrs A time. If he can sleep for 10hrs at night, should I set his bedtime at 8:00 so that he can get up at 6:00? I tried that, he actually got up at 6:00 and didn't fall back to sleep. But I still worry about the Daylight saving time if I set his bedtime at 8:00. Sooner or later bedtime or just keep it at 7:30. It's a question.

[smum]

Hi Vadensmom:

  So sorry to bring you so many questions & trouble. When I look the previous routine info I provided, I feel I should write 5:30am instead of 6:00am if he goes to bed at 7:30pm. After 10hrs mark, I don't know whether he falls back to sleep or not. Sometimes he can do it. Even he can do it, it doesn't happen soon. Today I've bought a baby monitor so that I can know what's going on after 5:30 more accurately. Really thank you and kathy. Without your support, I really feel blue & frustrated. When I get more accurate info, I'll tell you and hope you can still give me some advice. Wish you all have best & wonderful holidays.

[KathyM]

I think if you got good naps from him than that's the way to go. You know your baby best and well-rested is way better then OT even if he's doing it earlier in the day than you might like. He can't tell time...and this is what works for him. I think if it were me, I would gradually try to get a little bit later bedtime so he would have a little bit later wake up, but he might just be programmed to wake early no matter what you do.
So maybe your schedule starts at 6am instead of 7am....if that works for him, then do it. I think as he gets older, stays awake longer and drops his catnap, you might be able to adjust him to a 7am start, but some babies are just early risers. My ds always liked to get up early, where my dd sleeps in later. It's hard to tell what's temperament and what's due to a different schedule.

[vadensmommy]

Hey there SMum,
completely agree with Kathy - if you're getting a good nap out of him, stick with that amount of A time for the next couple of days and see what the results are. 

Yes, for an 8mo a 4.5hr A time would definitely cause OT!  Something I forgot to mention in my last post    when talking about keeping a really set first nap time, no matter the wake up, was that, to get there, you needed to sloooowly increase the first A time - by 15min or so every few days.  So if you are finding that his first A time of the day is right around 2.5hrs, and he is taking a good nap with that A time (or is having 45min nap =undertired many times) then every 3 days, increase the first A time by 15min till you get to your perfect ideal nap time, and again the thought is, is that the wake up time will adjust gradually later.  Again, I've never tried it, we just muddled through with the early wake ups for a while, until routine busters and vacations would readjust the wake up time later for us.  I hope that makes sense! 

Keep it up, it sounds like you are finding some things that work for you both, and I hope they stick!!!  Let us know how things continue!!