Author Topic: Long naps and awake times--help!  (Read 4757 times)

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Offline erica529

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Re: Long naps and awake times--help!
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2008, 15:33:40 pm »
Thanks for the link....it was great to read those stories and know I'm not the only one!   :)  I wish I lived close enough for you to come help--but for now, this board is helping me a TON!  The great news for today is....ds slept through the night from 10:30-6:30.  I couldn't believe it!

Of course, I have more questions:

Yesterday went a lot better--partly because ds fell asleep on his own once in the carseat (and then took a long nap in the seat once we got home), and once in the stroller.  I hope that won't interfere with the sleep training, because he usually does one of those things every day.  I can't seem to keep him awake in the stroller, and we go on a walk almost every day--is that a problem if he falls asleep without pat/shh?  Also, occasionally he falls asleep in my arms (like at church where I am not able to pat/shh him as usual).  I just want to be consistent, and I don't want to continue to do that if it's going to mess up the training.  What do you think? 

I haven't started the df yet, as it's taken ds so long to go down each night it's 10-11 before he's down for the night.  I plan to start it asap though...at what age would I stop doing it? 

Also, in the morning (when he wakes up about 7) I've been trying to get him down asap after he feeds, because he seems to do better when he gets that first nap in.  Did you have to do much pat/shhing at that time?  Usually he's sooo drowsy from eating that I just change his diaper, put him in the crib, then pat/shh him a tiny bit, then he's usually down until the next feed. 

When do you do a bath?  I would like to do one after the last feed of the night (7-8 or so) but is that too much A time right before bed?  It only takes me about 5-10 minutes to do his bath.  Should I be doing it earlier? 

This is probably a dumb thing to worry about, but sometimes I worry I'm making him nap too much.  Is it possible for babies to sleep longer than they need to?  Sometimes he's fussy and really hard to put down, but when he's yawning and his eyes and cry are tired, I think it's because he's tired, not because he doesn't need to sleep.  He's just sleeping so much more during the day than he used to (I think it's a good thing since he obviously wasn't getting the rest he needed before when he was barely napping).  Any thoughts? 

Thanks! :)

Offline erica529

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Re: Long naps and awake times--help!
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2008, 19:25:00 pm »
hi Michelle,

DS is on his second nap of the day and is doing great.  I think I am going to get to shower today....yea!

I thought of another question--how strict should I be about waking ds if he sleeps past the 3 hour mark for a feed?  yesterday I tried for probably 45 minutes to wake him up before i could get him to eat (I had lights on , was talking to him, puttering around in his room, etc.) so then he was that far off his feeding schedule.  This morning he did the same thing on his first nap.  So many people have told me to never waken a sleeping baby that I'm worried. 

Also, say for example he takes a 3 hour nap (like yesterday), he wakes up and eats, does his A time stay the same length?  It feels weird to start winding him down again so soon after a long nap like that, but I definitely don't want him to get OT because I extended his A time. 

On the flip side, what do I do if he wakes early from a nap.  Do I shh/pat him back to sleep, or let him get up for some A time before the next feed? 

Thanks a million!
Erica

Offline deckchariot

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Re: Long naps and awake times--help!
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2008, 20:07:25 pm »
HOOORAY for 8 hours of sleep!!!  do you feel like a new woman today?  Did you get your shower in?  FWIW, I think you're doing a fantastic job!  sorry if this is a quick post, Abby's gonna wake up any minute, and I don't want to leave you hanging....

falling asleep w/o shh/pat - don't worry about it, as long as it's not every nap, no worries (you just need a break sometimes, and sometimes, it's not possible - at church etc.)  Be consistent as much as you can and don't worry about the other times

df - we weaned Abby from hers around 7 mos - once solids were well established.  As your ds goes down easier, and his bedtime moves earlier, you could add in a df easily enough around 10/10:30.  I bf Abby, but dh gave a bottle of ebm at the df, it was just easier.

first nap - usually is the easiest when they are little, mainly because it's like an extension of night sleep - that was the first nap Abby was able to do completely on her own, so if he's getting the hang of it, YEAH!!  You can even try backing off a bit more each day on the shh/patting and see if he can do it on his own.

bath - we don't bathe her every night (mostly because dh is often out to mtg in the evenings, and I don't want to do it by myself), but when we do, we  do it right before her last feed of the night - a bit like it's part of the wind down.  When I was cluster feeding, the bath was kind of in between the 2 cluster feeds - so if she was on 3 hr EASY, it was eat: 7, 10, 1, 4, 6 (bath, wind down) 7:30 to bed - sometimes it was a bit long on the A time there, so we'd experiment with different times, maybe do 4, 6:30, 7:30 - the 7:30 was more like a top off at that point.  Once she transitioned to 3.5 hr EASY, I eliminated the cluster feeds, but still kept bath right before the last feed.

too much sleep - at his age, you do not need to worry about it!!!  Later, too much night sleep can affect naps, but at his age, he really needs a lot of sleep.  Here's a link with "average" sleep times, keep in mind, some babies need less, some need more:
sleep amounts

not waking at 3 hrs - remind me again - are you bf?  If you are, I really would try to wake him, it will help keep your milk supply established.  It's not as crucial if you're not.  That said, if he takes too long of a nap, it does mess  up the routine and may lead him to confusing his day and his night.  I'd say if he's not up at the 3 hr mark, peak in on him, if he's really out, let him go another 30 min before you try again.  With Abby, I'd let her go no more than 30 min past the 3 hr mark, then I'd get her up, and change her diaper, and that pretty much guaranteed she'd wake up.

waking early - what to do depends on how early he wakes - with Abby, if she had less than 30 min to go til the 3 hr mark, I'd either feed her or do some low key A time til the 3 hr mark and then feed her (but that does count towards total A time), if she had more than 30 min til the 3 hr mark and I didn't think she was hungry, I'd try shh/patting to get her back to sleep, but once it was close to the 3 hr mark, I'd feed her (but again count that time as part of her A time)

long naps - I wouldn't mess too much with the next A time (you're right - you don't want him to be OT), but you could try extending maybe 10 min, and see how he's doing those last 10 min, if he's showing his usual tired signs, forget extending and just put him down.  Sometimes, especially during growth spurts, babies need more sleep, so sometimes he just might need a bit more.  But if he seems ok during the extra 10 min, then keep that.

sorry this is so impersonal today...keep asking questions!!!  That's how we figure things out!!!  You are doing a great job!!!!!!!
Michelle




Offline erica529

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Re: Long naps and awake times--help!
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2008, 20:00:07 pm »
As always, you've been so helpful!  DS did another 8 + hours of sleep last night, then a long first nap, and now he's on his second nap.....so basically today is wonderful!  He had his immunizations 2 days ago so we had a hard couple of days, but I shush patted him to sleep for his second nap and he seems to remember all the hard work we've put in!  :)

I still haven't started the DF yet....because it still takes him  LONG time to go to bed at night.  Even if I start earlier, it still ends up being 10pm or so once he's down for good.   I will feed him, start winding down, but usually he won't settle down and will cry until it's time to eat again....then I can finally get him to sleep after a LOT of shush patting.  Any tips on making it earlier?  I think it would eliminate a LOT of fussy time if he went down a bit earlier. 

Cluster feeding--are there sleep and activity times each cycle when the feedings are closer together?  I haven't done any cluster feeding yet, but it would probably help with the night sleep (and possibly the evening fussiness), right?

How do you go anywhere at this stage, since it seems like even the shortest errand will break the routine (since A times are so short right now and he still takes up to 40 minutes to feed)?  I don't want to take him out with me on errands because I don't want to have an awful day if he didn't get his nap or something.  I guess I got used to how sleepy he was as a newborn and I could take him out for hours and he would just sleep :)  Any thoughts?

Ever since I put ds on 3 hr. EASY life has been much better for all of us.  I am so glad for your help! 

Thank you so much!

Offline deckchariot

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Re: Long naps and awake times--help!
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2008, 01:27:24 am »
I'm sooooooooo glad things are going better!!!  It sounds like he's really learning - you are teaching your son how to sleep independently - that is hard work, and you should feel really good about your efforts!!!!!

cluster feeding - with the last 3 feeds of the day, you'd have feed, catnap, feed, bedtime routine, feed....so let's see, working off the routine I posted earlier, you could feed at 3:30, give him a catnap around 4:30/4:45, feed him at 5:30, low key A time, start the bedtime routine around 6:15/6:30, and then feed at the end of your bedtime routine just before putting him to bed for the night.  I know in the book, Tracy recommends stopping cluster feeding at 7 weeks, but we kept right on going until I transitioned to 3.5 hr and 4 hr EASY.  I know for most bfing moms, supply dips in the evenings, so the extra feed seriously helped with her fussiness at night and made for much better bedtimes for us, so I kept it up. 

If he's so fussy at night, I really would consider trying to cluster feed - he may just not have had enough calories in the day to settle better at night.  I know with Abby, initially it did take us a really long time to settle her at night, but once we started moving that bedtime earlier and she started napping somewhat, the bedtime got better and better.  And now she absolutely LOVES bedtime.  I have never seen a baby so excited to go to bed in my life.  So, it is possible!!!

At this age, I didn't really go anywhere.  I was soooooooooo committed to getting her to nap, I was afraid to screw up that.  Every once in awhile, I'd pump and leave her with dh and skip the feed time (and I'd usually have to pump as soon as I got home).  And once, I had a friend come over and just take her for a walk while I ran some errands - she slept in the stroller.  But yeah, I was at home A LOT in the beginning.  The good news is that it really does get better.  I also would sometimes have dh do bedtime (after I fed her) and I'd go out to the grocery store while he tried to get her to sleep.  We alternated nights on who had to do bedtime. 

I just want to encourage you that you really are doing a fantastic job!!!!  You will reap the benefits of the time you've invested now, and you'll be so glad you did the sleep training.  I'm here for you!!!
Michelle




Offline erica529

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Re: Long naps and awake times--help!
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2008, 02:08:29 am »
Quick question about cluster feeding:

I kind of feel like I am force feeding him since he usually doesn't have his feeds so close together.  He's not upset that I'm making him eat, but is it ok to coax him a bit? 



Offline deckchariot

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Re: Long naps and awake times--help!
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2008, 03:04:00 am »
with bf babies, you can't really force them to eat, if he's willing to eat, then you're fine.  If he's not hungry, he won't eat.  That's one nice thing about bfing  :)
Michelle




Offline erica529

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Re: Long naps and awake times--help!
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2008, 22:24:15 pm »
Michelle, we need help!

Yesterday went pretty well for most of the day (he took all of his naps)....until bedtime.  I did cluster feeds for the first time (at 4:30, 6:30, then 7:45) and ds went down beautifully about 8:15.  He woke up at 7:30 am that morning so I figured an 8:15 bedtime was reasonable (but maybe he doesn't need that much sleep?). 

I stayed and shush patted him for 20 minutes after he was asleep, then left dh in charge while I went to the grocery store.  Apparently he woke up about 5 minutes after I left, and wouldn't go back down.  He wasn't acting tired or anything, he was just smiling and cooing.  Is it possible that he thought when he went down at 8:15 it was a catnap?  He had his real catnap at about 6:30.   

I ended up feeding him again about 10 pm and then he went down about 11:15 pm (he woke up once again before midnight, but went right back to sleep) then slept until 6:45am.  He has been going to bed for the night between 9:30-11 each night, but we are trying to move him up earlier.  Did I do it too fast?  maybe I should have done it more gradually....but I don't know how. It seems like before I started the cluster feeding we had hours of crying until he finally went down at 10 or 11. 

I am not sure if I should add another feeding cycle so he has an extra nap.  What I REALLY want him to do is go to bed earlier.  I'm not even asking for him to go to sleep at 7 pm, even though that would be nice.  I just think it's way too late for him to be up at that hour, and we need to go to bed too.  Do you think it's a stage he'll grow out of, or is there something I can do about it? 

Thanks!

Offline erica529

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Re: Long naps and awake times--help!
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2008, 22:25:44 pm »
Oops.....correction....he had his real catnap yesterday from 6:00-6:30. 

Offline deckchariot

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Re: Long naps and awake times--help!
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2008, 01:14:34 am »
I'm glad his naps are going better!!!  My guess on the bedtime issue is that is was too big of a change too fast...but that's just a guess on my part.  We had the same issues with Abby when we started moving her bedtime earlier (she also was the super late bedtime in the beginning too).  So maybe do cluster feeds at 4:30, 6:30 and 8:30 (with cat naps in between) for 2 or 3 days, then gradually move the 8:30 feed earlier - maybe by 15 min every other day til you get it back where you want it.  I think what we did was gradually move the last 3 feeds to 4, 6, and 7:30.  Then when we moved to a 4 hr EASY, we merged the 6 and 7:30 feeds into one feed at 7.  We kept a dream feed at 10:30 til about 7 months.  Does that make sense?

You are so committed....I'm really impressed at the great job you're doing!!!
Michelle




Offline erica529

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Re: Long naps and awake times--help!
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2008, 04:18:18 am »
Thanks for all your help!  We are making progress (I think ;)

Df--do you take them out of the crib to do it?  Do they ever wake up?

Also, when should I think about transitioning to 3.5 hour EASY?  Do I keep cluster feeding until I go to 4 hour EASY?





Offline erica529

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Re: Long naps and awake times--help!
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2008, 04:22:30 am »
Also a swaddle question.....we have him in a special swaddle blanket with velcro, but sometimes ds gets sooo mad if he can't get his hands out....but if we leave his hands out, he seems to move around so much he can't sleep.  He does suck on his hands, but not his thumb.  How do we know when he's ready to not be swaddled anymore? 

Offline deckchariot

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Re: Long naps and awake times--help!
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2008, 20:13:12 pm »
so glad things are going better!!!!  It's a lot of work, but the payoff lasts much longer!

df - we did take Abby out of the crib.  Dh actually always did the df - I would pump, he would give a bottle of ebm.  When we first started, she wouldn't wake up for it, but later on, she did.  We weaned her from it around 7 mos.  Even when she did wake, usually she'd fall back asleep before dh was even finished, she'd just keep right on sucking and fall asleep, so when he was done with the bottle, he'd burp her gently and pop her back in the crib.

I transitioned to 3.5 hr EASY around 3.5 months, didn't stay on it for long, it was kind of a bridge for me between 3 and 4 hr EASY.  There's a post in the EASY board FAQs about making the switch.  When will your ds be 4 mos?  I kept cluster feeding until I was fully on the 4 hr EASY - as I made the transition, my last 2 feeds merged into one.  I know that's longer than the book recommends, but I didn't want to mess up my night sleep, and it worked for us.

swaddling - you can try just leaving one hand out at first - that's what we did, if he doesn't sleep, swaddle him all the way.  It's a bit of a guessing game.  As you notice him sucking on his fingers more (especially as you notice him doing it for comfort - like when he's tired) that's when you can try it (one or both hands) and see what happens. 

You really are doing a fantastic job!!!  Thanks for the updates - and feel free to keep asking questions!
Michelle




Offline erica529

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Re: Long naps and awake times--help!
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2008, 20:56:47 pm »
Another shush pat question:

If ds starts to cry in the crib when I am pat/shushing, at what point do I pick him up?  Twice already today he has started screaming in the crib, and I shush him louder, but he didn't calm down, so I took him out and held him until he was calm.  Is that right?  The only problem was that both times I did that, as soon as he calmed down, he was immediately fast asleep (not in time for me to get him back in the crib awake).  I REALLY want to be consistent and worry that I am messing things up by accidentally having him fall asleep in my arms.  I try to wait and let him cry a bit while I am patting him before I take him out of the crib, but he seems to get hysterical fast!

On that same note, ds usually has some hard crying before going down for a nap, or to bed for the night--is that normal?  It takes me a long time to settle him down and usually he's exhausted himself by crying by the time i have him in the crib.  I've tried to watch for his cues to make sure I am not missing the window, but maybe he's crying so much because I'm missing it?  When he starts yawning, have I already missed it?  Sometimes he doesn't seem the least bit tired (eyes are wide open and he is alert) but he's yawning a lot and crying, so I have to think that if he's yawning, he's tired (right?). 

He's 10 weeks this week, so he'll be 4 months at the beginning of March.  Thanks for the tips about transitioning....I should plan to stay on 3 hour EASY for at least another month, right?  It seems like as soon as I have his routine down, I will have to change it :)

I really appreciate all your help!

Offline erica529

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Re: Long naps and awake times--help!
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2008, 20:58:32 pm »
Also, should I still be putting him down for a nap 1 hr./1 hr. 15 min. after he wakes?  Should I do this as long as he's on 3 hr. EASY?  Sometimes it seems so early to already be putting him down again, and I wondered if as he gets older he will want to stay awake longer.