we can never get the first nap of the day right!!! :(

[{{{Angela}}}]

I've tried to stick to an EASY routine, but the last couple of weeks we've fallen into this pattern:
first nap = 30-45 minutes
second nap = long (hopefully) 2-3 hours
third nap = 30 minutes or non-existent

I don't know how to get the first nap right.  I've tried A times of anywhere between 1 hour to 2 hours, in 15 minute increments.  DD goes down quite easily usually - I hold her in my arms for a few minutes, then when drowsy put her down and shhh her with a hand on her chest.  She's usually asleep within 10 minutes.  But then she will wake up after only 30-45 minutes of sleep.  She's quite happy when she wakes up, smiling and talking to me.  I cannot get her back to sleep, I tried shhh-ing her for over 40 minutes once.

Then if it's close to feeding time, I'll feed her then bath.  If not, I'll give her a bath first, then feed.  Bath makes her tired, and together with a short nap, she'll doze off while feeding or in my arms after burping.  I hesitate to put her down right away because I want her to sleep, so I end up holding her for 20 minutes or so.  She'll either sleep a long time (like I said, 2-3 hours) or 45 minutes, in which case I'll hold her and shhh-pat her until she goes back to sleep.

I try to get her down for a third nap about 1 hour after she wakes up...if she sleeps, she'll go to sleep quite readily (10 minutes or so), sometimes she'll cry a bit, but again, she only sleeps 30-45 minutes.

On a good day, she'll still get about 4-4.5 hours of day sleep, a bad day is like 2.5 hours of day sleep.  Should I just resign myself to this schedule?  She is sort of OT by the end of the night, so it takes a while to get her to sleep (30min to 1hour), lately I think she's been fussy due to a growth spurt so I'm not sure.

Thanks for reading my long post.  I'm starting to get a bit depressed so I've been re-reading the "read this first if you're desperate to CIO" posts and trying to give myself pep talks.

edited to add: I should mention DD is almost 13 weeks old.

[deckchariot]

Hugs to you Angela!!  It can be so frustrating to try to figure out the whole napping issue - for you and your dd.  Can you post your whole EASY routine as it currently is?  Also, are you bf or formula feeding?  Is your dd swaddled for naps and/or nights?  Is there any special reason you give her a bath during the day before her second nap?  Let's try to sort through this and see if we can figure some things out!  Hang in there!

michelle

[*Nicola*]

Angela  ((Hugs)) 

[{{{Angela}}}]

Thanks for the hugs   I have been trying to do sleep training in earnest now, no more holding her to sleep but our schedule gets mixed up so I end up feeding her before naptime and she inevitably dozes off.  I have also been doing the shh-pat wrong (or the shhh in our case, the pat doesn't work), because I thought I had to start it when I put her down, but found out that you're not supposed to unless they are crying.

Michelle, I BF and DD is currently swaddled with one arm out for naps, and totally swaddled for night.  She breaks free really easily though.  I don't think she really likes it.  I give her a bath around midday because up until she was 6 weeks old, we used to bath her before bedtime.  Then she started having screaming meltdowns after bath and we realized they were overtiring her.  When we stopped the evening bath, she stopped the screaming.

We don't have much of an EASY schedule anymore, but I will post what happened today:

4:30am E
8:30am E (but not much, usually not really hungry first thing - why? I don't know?), then A
10am E again (this time she is hungry)
10:30am put into bed awake but happy, eating her hand and looking around, until 10:50am, then starts to cry, a bit hysterical, I shhhh'ed her in her bed, asleep in 10 minutes
11-11:50am S
11:50am A, b/c not hungry
12:30pm E, not a full feeding in my mind, then bath
1:00pm E again, dozed off,
1:25pm she was half asleep when I swaddled her and put her to bed...I jostled her a bit and she woke and looked at me like I was crazy and went back to sleep
2:15pm woke up at 45 minute mark, I shhhh'ed her back to sleep
2:30-4:30pm S, yay!
4:40pm E
5:50pm E
6:10pm put her down for nap but only slept 10 minutes
7:30pm E
8:00pm S

Okay I hope that makes sense.  Yesterday I tried W2S for her second nap, and she didn't wake up at the 45 minute mark.  I was also sitting with her for the first 45 minutes anyway; today I wasn't able to so do you think I should try it again tomorrow?  and for the first nap?

[deckchariot]

Thanks for the extra info Angela!  At least you got one good nap in there in the afternoon!!  So that's exciting 

Are you doing single side or double side feeding?  I think around 3 mos is when I switched to double side feeding to make sure my dd was getting enough.  I notice you mention  a few times in your routine that you don't think she's having a full feed - why?  I'm wondering if indeed she's not having a full feed and is actually just snacking (it looks like your bfing 7x a day, right, though, so that's about right, so maybe she's not always snacking....)  It does look like you're right, that extra E in every cycle is messing up the nap  and the independent sleep thing.  Though it looks like she sleeps GREAT at night!!

My first thought is that her initial A time is too long.  At 2 mos, most lo's can handle 1 hr to 1 hr 20 of A time, I know she's almost 3 mos, and at 3 mos, most lo's can do 1 hr 20 - 1 hr 30 of A time.  So if she's up for the day at 8:30, you'd be aiming to have her in bed asleep no later than 10.  Of course, if she's not taking a full feed at 8:30, then she won't be able to go to sleep because she's still hungry.  You may want to try breast compression or switch to double sided feeding to encourage her to take a full feed at 8:30.  Then I would start the wind down really by about 9:30 or 9:45 at the latest.  With the swaddle - we found that the Miracle Blanket was the only swaddle our dd couldn't get out of - I've heard the Swaddle Me blankets are also really good, so you may want to try that.  Most lo's will fight the swaddle - but they don't really have control of their arms and legs yet, so they're not making a conscious statement that they don't like it, so I'd keep it up since she's still pretty young.  We always left an arm out too, so dd could find her thumb.

When we were doing heavy duty sleep training, we'd include pat/shh as part of our wind down - we'd start it on our shoulder and continue it in the crib til she went to sleep, then we'd stay there through the first 20 min sleep cycle, til she got used to doing it on her own.  I didn't do w2s until much later.  Daytime sleep in babies doesn't develop until 3-6 mos of age, so she's really young yet to sort it all out, though you can certainly help her with it. 

My first thought is that her naps are off because she's up too long between her first wake up and first nap and then she just gets more and more tired as the day goes on.  So try shortening that first A time.  Then, if her first nap is short, try pat/shh to extend it, but don't try more than 30  min, then get her up.  If it's been 2.5 hrs since the last feed, and she seems hungry, go ahead and feed her.  If not, do some super low key A time (cuddling, rocking etc) til 3 hrs, then feed her, then diaper change, and immediately back to the wind down for the next nap.  The key is to not keep the OT cycle building throughout the day...so if one nap is bad, the next  A time is pretty much nothing other than feed and diaper change.

If the bath is working for you in the middle of the day, keep it, just count it as part of the A time.

HTH and hang in there!  Sleep training is really hard!!

michelle

[{{{Angela}}}]

Thanks Michelle. 

I tried W2S yesterday but it didn't work, she woke up anyway.  This is what happened:

38 minute mark - went in, jostled her a bit, she tossed her head and fluttered her eyes, I thought that was enough
47 minute mark - started tossing and turning her head, squirming around (I was holding her free arm down and had my other hand on her chest), but still asleep
55 minute mark - tossed her head and opened her eyes - she was awake!!!  I continued holding her and started shhhhhh
65 minute mark - asleep again (and slept for 2h20min - I couldn't bear to wake her, haha)

So do you think she is too young for W2S?  How else can I keep her sleeping?  I could go in and hold her down, but I was already doing that and she woke up anyway.  hmmmmm... 

[*Nicola*]

Angela,

Don't be discouraged    It sounds as if she is waking up from naps still sleepy and just needs some help to get back to sleep.  If it only took 10 mins (between 55 and 65 mins) to get her back down then that is BRILLIANT.

Callie will often wake at 45 mins or 1 hour, make some fussy noises and put herself back to sleep.  Zinnia has done the same, just with your help.  If I were you I would keep it up and the time will come when she can sleep through herself.   

[*Natasha*]

W2S can be used at this age but try doing it a little earlier perhaps at the 30min mark.

[*Nicola*]

Yup, we go in at 30 mins.  Any earlier and she is in a deep sleep and won't rouse.  Any later and she is already moving around so I leave her be.

[{{{Angela}}}]

okay thanks, will try that tomorrow!

[*Nicola*]

   Good luck

I spent ages trying to rouse callie by stroking her face etc but she wouldn't move.  Now I put my finger tips under her shoulders and gently pull her up just a tiny bit.  She usually stirs right away 

[{{{Angela}}}]

Well I tried W2S and she didn't wake at 45 minutes, so that is good.  The bad news is that I spent almost an hour trying to get her to sleep.  That was yesterday...no wait, 2 days ago?  I can't even remember.  We've had such a bad nap day today that she can't sleep now, she's OT and crying.  It's almost 9pm now.  She hasn't taken a full feed either.   I don't know what is wrong, she just wouldn't sleep.  Shhh-pat made her cry and then scream in my arms, so finally I rocked her a bit while shh-patting her.  She fell asleep, I put her down and she woke at 20 minutes.  She did this 3 times - kept falling asleep and waking at 20 minutes.  I was so fed up (and hungry and had to go to the bathroom b/c I had been in there for almost 2.5 hours) that we went out and she slept in the stroller/carseat for 45 minutes.

I gave her about 1h30min for her first A time and she didn't seem tired and it took me an hour to get her to sleep, finally shh-pat in my arms and she only slept 35 minutes.  For her second nap she kept waking and sleeping (as I said) and out of desperation I nursed her and she fell asleep...for 20 minutes.  I am so depressed now, I can't get this right.  My whole day is spent shhh-ing and trying to get her to sleep or preventing her from waking up too early.  I get all stressed out that she doesn't sleep enough during the day, and of course, she is impossible to get to sleep at bedtime b/c of this.   

Oh I forgot to say, that I appreciate your advice Michelle, but I just can't keep trying to extend her naps, then do an A time of diaper change and back to the wind down with shh-patting again...I have a 3.5 year old who needs my attention too and I've been spending my whole day pretty much "sleep training" these past few weeks.

[*Nicola*]

Angela ((Hugs)) 

I posted on the BC thread but I can't mind what I said so I'll post my thoughts here again 

If you are struggling with OT and this is having an effect on bedtime I think you first need to concentrate on breaking that cycle.  In your situation I think I would focus on extending her naps once she is asleep and once she is well rested I would then begin to address independent sleeping.

So, if she is happy to feed to sleep could you do that in the morning.  Then try W2S to extend that nap past 45 mins.  If you are successful in that then at least you are starting with her well rested.  Most mums find that if the first nap is good then the others are more likely to be better.  If the nap is bad then of course the rest follow like that.  You could either do the same for the next nap or perhaps try pat/shh for 30 mins then if she doesn't settle, feed to sleep and try to extend. Then on to next nap.  Once you have had some good naps then I would focus more on the actual falling asleep along with the extension.

Others may disagree!! I have just found sleep training when LO is OT to a pointless exercise for everyone.  For what it's worth, I totally know how hard it is to train LO2 with LO1 around.  Near impossible.

What do you think? 

[Purplecattypants]

Hi Angela, another Angela here!

I havent had time to read this whole thread to see what others have suggested but just thoight i'd let you know what seems to work for us.

DS started taking short naps for about 2 weeks at age 3 months, combination of OT and developmental I think. Anyway, I found that w2s just woke him up, and shush/pat just made him angry. His naps have been getting better the past week or so (developmental), but I find what works if he still has short naps is this.....

I get him up and do a little bit of low key activity with him for 10-15mins...he had a little old macdonald finger puppet glove thingy, I put that on and sing to him, he reaches for the animals etc...nothing too stimulating. I then reswaddle him, stand by the cot and put the lullaby player on and sing softly for a few mins (he usually calms down to listen if he's wriggling!). Then I put him back to bed and put some white noise on. Usually he will cry, but i've found if I just leave him he will usualy stop crying within 5 mins and go back to sleep. I will go back in if he doesnt stop or is hysterical (no CIO here!!) but more often than not I dont need to. I think it just winds him up me being there, so if I just say "I'm going now ok? Enjoy your nap" and leave, he settles much better than if i'm there trying to calm him 

Anyway, thats just what works for us! Hope it gets better x