how do you define sleeping through the night?

[Mama2boys]

Thanks Kelly, will take you up on that guidance and start the diluting routine at 4 or whatever time the LO decides to mess with my sleep But here is my next question then...so what should my schedule look like

4:30am diluted feed
7:30 wake-up
7:45 bottle

8:30 bfast?
10- 11:15 nap
snack on waking
1:00 lunch
2:30 bottle will turn to snack once the night is sorted
3-4:15 nap
5:30 dinner

My worry is that he will barely take any bottle at 7:45 and not really eat a proper bfast as well at 8:30..any thoughts on how I can tweak this.

Thanks a ton for your patience and guidance...
Mukta

[EllenS]

FYI, Mukta - I kindof agree with you about fast metabolism.  I asked my pediatrician about getting rid of the night feed at my dd's 12 month checkup, and he seemed to think it was normal, he said she would drop it as her stomach got bigger and could hold more food.  I mean, there's only so much food and milk you can stuff into a child in 12-13 hours!  She's just so tall and skinny and active.

My dd still has "good" days and "bad" where she will sleep thru or not.  I have found that "loading" her supper with very high-calorie foods, like banana and avocado, does help sometimes.

[Mama2boys]

Thanks EllenS....on a bad day do you give her a feed when she wake sup in the middle of the night?

honestly my brother is scary in terms of his metabolic rate and I used to have it pretty good as well till my thyroid gave way. plus DS is tiny and constantly on the move...

But all that being said, sleep training is needed to get him rid of the habit. a few bad days is not a habit but he Right now is in a habit.

[KellyC]

Hmm, quite hard for me to compare because at 13 months Zander was almost there with dropping to one nap.  I was giving a short nap in the morning and a long nap straight after lunch.  Am I right in thinking your LO has always slept poorly at night?  It's not just a new thing or something which has got worse lately which could be related to his routine needing changing?  I'm only asking because his second nap ends quite close to bedtime and I wonder if he's just not tired enough to sleep soundly.  My youngest is almost 8 months old and is usually up from his last nap by 3pm, sometimes earlier and his bedtime is 7pm.

What do you give him for breakfast?  I've never had a problem with giving a milk feed followed immediately by breakfast (though I know some wait a while) with my two.  I wonder if you just need to mix it up, give him something he can feed himself and have fun with perhaps?  Of course he isn't going to be too hungry still having milk at 4am but that will gradually be resolved.

Kelly x

[Mama2boys]

yup he has always been a poor sleeper at night...and infact the presnet routine is working well and he falls asleep by the clock a huge change form how it used to be about 2-3 months ago.

I think I'll try and push the bfast to maybe 9 and maybe adjust the lunch a bit and see, I'd be very concerned about shifting the nap times, his ability to fall asleep on his own at those times is like heaven right now!

Normally bfast is about 4/5 milk sized scoops of cereal/oats with maybe 2-4oz of milk mixed in and some fruit - a banana or pear or something like that....

[EllenS]

I've been trying lately to do PUPD on the "bad" nights, but when she does the classic hunger pattern (waking repeatedly at 45min - 1h intervals), I feed her.

I had just decided to put her on a bottle for any night feeds, so we could do the subtraction method, when last night we had a night from h***, which did not seem related to hunger (because I tried feeding and it did not help).  Bryony just moved my post about it to this board, so hopefully we can get her sorted.

She is currently refusing a pm nap for the 3rd day in a row. 

[Mama2boys]

So ladies, you probably think I am the most high maintenace mom on earth but we hit an all time low yesterday. Its probably teething related but i have just about had it.
Slet as usual and even had a full 4oz bottle - very rare...gave him medi for his pain, but no effect he was up groaning every 2 hrs or so, so sleepy poor babe would not Even sit up..finally at the 4:30 wakeup i knew it was milk or nothing gave him another 4oz that went down OK, but unlike every other night when he goes right back to sleep he did not and from 4:30 to 6:30 he was up and groaning every 20min. I gave him pain relief and no luck. oh and at 5:30 i gave him another 2oz to see if that would coax him back to sleep. I know bad me.Finally at 6:30 i cuddled him into my bed..i could barely take it any longer and we slept for 30 blissful minutes.
and he had a heart bast of 7scoops of cereal and a banana so looks like his appetite is slowly coming back but this sleep training and teething mix is killing me.
I don't Even have the face to ask for more help i feel sad.

btw realized i was doing the diluting weaning all wrong, i was also reducing the vol of milk, not just diluting it. uph

[KellyC]

Poor you.  {hugs}.  I think we've all had nights like that at some point, I hope you're both feeling better today.

I was thinking about his eating when I was giving my youngest lunch today.  Are you still feeding him yourself or does he get the opportunity to self-feed alot?  I remember a few mums whose LOs stopped eating well at around this age and it's because they wanted to do it independently.  Just a thought.

Seriously, for the teething, try ambesol liquid.  You have to ask for it behind the counter but it doesn't just soothe, it numbs!  If Calpol isn't helping much have you tried Calprofen (or some other make of nurofen).  I usually find that works better for me. 

As for the groaning, do you have a baby monitor on still?  Can you hear every little noise?  If he's groaning but still asleep then personally I wouldn't even try to do anything as I would be more likely to disturb him than help him, I only go if he is awake and really needs me.

Hang in there.  If you feel this is the wrong time with the teething etc then don't feel bad if you want to give it a break until things are better.

K x

[EllenS]

That sounds like the night we had night before last (esp. the moaning every 20 minutes).  She's coughing and has a snotty nose today- I think she was catching her daddy's cold.

At least if you lo is catching a cold, it will be over soon.

I hope whatever it is you get it sorted ASAP! That kind of exhaustion is no good for anybody.

HUGS!

[mari]

Mukta.  I'm back, sorry I've been deserting you this week.  Hubby was home! 

I've tried to catch up a little.  Sorry things have been up and down.  Damned teeth!  My cousin is a dentist and she said that Neurofen is better for teething as it has an antiinflamatory. 
Hve you tried to give breakfast before milk in the morning?  It might make a difference.  I agree that it's a lot to try to cram into 12 hours and also we all eat differently and so do babies, I now that you are worried that he might be hungry but I think that you can put a lot of the milk down to habit rather than hunger. 

Sorry if I'm repeating posts here.  I will try to look in later to see if I can help further, although you have been getting great advice again this week.

I know it's tough, but honestly the benefits are immense. 

[Mama2boys]

Mari, don't worry you never deserted me, the other ladies have so kindly been guiding me...

so things have only gotten worse. The pacifier bit has improved as I left a few extra in DS's crib and dint have to go and give it to him in the middle of the night, that often..so a step forward.

but then he has now been waking up at abt 4 for his milk/fussing etc and refuses to go back to sleep till 6..(even after the milk)....so if there is anything else that can go wrong it will..thats me Charlie Brown for you! Saturday morning was so bad I could not drag myself out of bed, I just could not, between exhaustion and sheer depression...

btw we have a monitor but I do not go into DS room till he is actually crying/sitting standing up

So i think he is trying hard to eat on his own with a spoon but his food strike seemed to have been teething related..getting a bit better so thats good news.
Will try Neurofen, I also think its easier as the quantity to  force down DS throat is lesser a sure advantage.

But am totally at a loss about the not falling back to sleep, he had 8oz today at 4, that ladies is unheard of in the 1 yr of his existence, never has he taken 8oz. day time milk feeds are 4 max 5oz if I am lucky. As  aresult he is tired and sleepy but his body wakes him up at usual times and he is not really taking longer naps...yawns through the meal and that obviously results in an insufficient meal.

DH is not being very supportive wrt stopping the 4am feed and 'believes' that he knows DS is hungry...whatever....but with 8oz down the hatch I am doubting myself again I feel stupid and embarrassed that after weeks of you all guiding me I still cant sort this out. I must be a crap mom

 

[mari]

I'm still reluctant to say that he's hungry, especially as he doesn't fall back to sleep after the milk at 4am. Maybe it couldeven be stimulating him a little?

As you say it is always 4am do you think that it could be a habit and W2S might help?  Now I am not an expert in W2S (not an expert in anything actually  ) and was never a fan of the idea of disturbing my child when already asleep But I do know that people have had success so hopefully someone can advise as to whether it's an appropriate method and how to do it correctly.
Good luck.

[Colin Macs Mom]

You know what mukta, I think you should tell your DH that if he's so sure he can get up and do all the wakings.

[Mama2boys]

Thanks Jessica and Mari,
Jessica: I can't complain as DS does help me a lot with the NW's but not having support  for sleep training is a pain so we will have a good chat about it today!..in fact after dinner

Mari: I know you are right, but am going to give this another week as teething is in full siwng and I can feel some molars and swelling. So i'm going to stick by everything that I have been doing, someday it will all work out. I will blame teething for the NW and lack of sleeping training results for the time being...
I am not a big fan of w2s as DS is a real light sleeper and i believe in letting sleeping lions lie. I know it has worked for some but DS is far too light a sleeper and god forbid what if he does not go back to sleep?? w2s Will be my last resort.

Am feeling a bit positive again...so here's to another week

I cant stop thanking you all enough.
Mukta

[Lissybits]

I've been reading this thread with interest.
Mukta - I have had sleep problems with DS since he was 4mo  he actually slept thru at 8 weeks but started waking at 4mo and is still waking now at 26mo
We just started sleep training PROPERLY about a mo ago. When I say PROPERLY, I mean absolutely NO AP. This time it is working
Before, when I have attempted sleep training, I have always given in at some point to milk/cuddling to sleep or bringing DS in our bed every few days and then wondered why DS still woke during the night!!

I know it is hard, hard, hard but now I can see the results of being totally consistent, I oh so wish I had done this 18 mo ago - and it would have been easier then

I wonder if we could have a link to Mari's thread when she was sleep training her DD? Mari also had a terrible time of it. I think Mari's story could be really encouraging

Lis
x