Can't seem to extend the 3hr routine

[Grace's Mom]

Julesd.
45 minute naps usually = needing more A time
Do you have a wind down time and nap routine for your lo?
Is there a low key activity you can do...some snuggle time, etc. to get your lo to extend that 1st A time just a tad?
-The first A time tends to be a bit shorter than the others...they see it as an extension of their night time sleep. However, 45 minutes isn't long enough as you know. 
I would work on extending that 1st A time to get a good 1st nap to start the day off on a good foot.  From there your lo may be able to do the 2 hours of A time to get back on to the 4 hour EASY.

-Melissa

[julesd]

Thanks Melissa.

I tried keeping the first A time low key today but there are a number of issues that are messing up this routine (including early waking and short morning nap...).

Today, my DS wakes up raring to go at 6:15 a.m.  Should I do P.U/P.D until 7?  I am confused.  How do I know if his EW are ok (natural biorythms) or not ok (due to AP??).

One thing for sure is that he can go four hours between feeds no problem.  It's the sleeping that's an issue.

Here is our routine so far:

E: 6:30 - couldn't stave him off any longer than that (last time he ate at NW1 at 1 a.m. and before that 7:15 p.m. the evening before)

A: 7:00 - i kept things really quiet and low key

S: 7:55 - again, there was no way to keep him up longer.  But nap only lasted 45 min (argh!).  I went in to try to help him transition into the next sleep cycle after 30 minutes--however he literally jolted from sleep right at the 38 minute mark and started smiling and cooing.  I did P.U./P.D. for 20 min but then gave up because he's happy and kicking his legs and giggling.  It just seems absurd to keep going when there is obviously no chance of him going back to sleep...

A: 8:35 - can't feed him yet so we had some A time

E: 10:00 - had to feed him because he was falling asleep.

S: 10:20 - currently sleeping.  He'll probably go 1.5 to 2 hours this time around.


So...  this is a real mess.  I have a spirited baby: the BW says that they often have short morning naps.  Am a fighting a losing battle here?

[Grace's Mom]

The thing with PU/PD is that you can't do it unless your lo is really crying. 
Be sure to check out our PU/PD thread for great advice.  There is a FAQ's section at the top of the PU/PD 'home' page and it has all the 'rules' of PU/PD...when you can/can't use it.

Some lo's do just naturally wake early.
Mine is just like that.  From 6 months onward she has been a 6am wake up baby. 
Even with time changes and a move across the country (4 hour time difference) each time she made her way back to waking at 6am.  It's just one of those things we have had to accept.

However this is new for your lo so that may not be the case. 

When you say he can't stay awake any longer in the morning, what is he doing? 


Melissa

[mumofalice]

Hello Melissa, Lisa and Jules

Just popped back to ask what Melissa's thoughts / suggestions were on extending those A times - and I was pleased (is that wrong?!!) to see other posts with similar 'issues' as it were - I do worry that I'm AP sometimes by feeding when DD wakes . . . but think I may have conditioned her to want feeding due to waking her previously iykwim. Did manage to hold her back for 15 mins yesterday tho - which I was really pleased about, but it's only once so far!! Am hoping that when I introduce solids (not long to go now - LOs really do grow so quick!!) I will notice a change . . . we shall see.

Jules - my LO has real trouble staying awake first thing too - until a couple of wks ago (when the dreaded 45min naps began - sorry to hear that's the norm for you) DD would show cues at 45mins - by 60mins she would be back down to sleep and when I first tried to extend her A time she ended up being OT and her naps suffered anyway!! I've now managed to get to about 1hr 15mins but still can't seem to get to 2hrs of awake time at all - hence my request for suggestions on how to extend.

The first nap of the day is now usually 1.5 to 2hrs (which is great) and therefore I can sometimes manage a 3.5hr routine first thing . . . but then the routine seems to get shorter as the day goes on (between feeds) so that DD still ends up feeding at around 4.30 to 5.00pm and then again at 6.30pm before bath and bed - DD will be 24wks on Saturday and at her last weigh in (3 wks ago) she was just 12lbs 4oz - so still fairly small I would say? Not sure how much of a difference this makes?

One other thing I would like to ask - tho am sure that I've read and re-read this, so should be able to answer it myself LOL!! When do you start your wind down? I tend to start mine when I see the first cues - but by the time we snuggle DD is very fidgety - am sure she just doesn't really like to cuddle too much!! When I first did the BW test my LO came out as Text Book - but I think she is far too sensitive a soul to be Text Book!! She's a brilliant sleeper - as long as it's in her own cot - otherwise she will fight sleep and then become OT which results in a melt down - maybe it's time for me to revisit the quiz . . . and maybe I should answer more honestly LOL!!

Look forward to more thoughts / suggestions

Berni x
 

[julesd]

Well, today was a gong show.

This kid is all over the map.    This morning I barely made it an hour of A time before he crashed and burned and I had to put him down.  Meanwhile, it's now late afternoon and he's been up for three hours now and is as happy as a lark (flat out refused his catnap, which he normally resists).  I will never figure this child out!!

Grace's Mom:  Sorry, my dh and I are in the bad habit of using the term "P.U/P.D" when what we really mean is "don't pick him up out of the crib".  I only use pu/pd when he's crying.  When he's not crying, I do shush-pat--is that the right thing to do?  So my question about EWs is should I do shush-pat until 7:00?  Or just start my EASY routine whenever he wakes up?

Berni:  I'm not having any luck extending A time either.  Tomorrow I'm trying something totally counterintuitive, but nothing else has worked.  I'm going to wear him out in the jolly jumper and see if that gets us a longer first nap!  I'll let you know if it's a success (or dismal failure)...

[julesd]

Berni,

To answer your question about wind down, I am a clock-watcher at the moment because of trying to transition to a longer routine.  So I don't wait for cues...  I think I'm terrible at reading them anyway because usually he was OT by the time I finally started the wind down.

Our wind down consists of closing the blinds, turning on the white noise, swaddling, and then singing 3-4 songs while rocking in the glider, putting him in his crib still awake, and then shush-patting until sleep.  It takes about 5-10 minutes, usually (and sometimes up to 30!!).

[Grace's Mom]

Julesd....We always started EASY when she woke for the day and then went from there. 
You can try to get your lo back to sleep but if you can see that's it's not working....your lo is happy and ready to go...then start your day.  You can let naps go a bit longer or add in a small extra nap, etc to help get your day back on track.  What ever it is that your lo needs for that day is fine. 

mumofalice....congrats on extending that feeding!  15 minutes is a huge deal.  Way to go.
-Lo's personality types can change as your lo gets older.
My lo started out Angel/Textbook and then swapped over to SPIRITED/textbook.
Wind down starts before you know they are going to get tired (walking around the garden, house, etc.).  It's time time of winding down from all the stimulation. Then you move to your nap routine....diaper change, songs, etc.
My lo never wanted to be snuggled, still doesn't so we don't.  She doesn't require much of a wind down or nap routine.  We change her diaper, put her in her crib, sing her a song (the same one we've been singing to her since she was born), pray and leave.  It's doesn't have to be extravagant, just something that works for your lo.
-Feeding more frequently at night is normal.  It's like cluster feeding.  Their bodies know they need to tank up before bed to help them get through the night.

Melissa

[mumofalice]

Thanks for your support Melissa.

When you say that you started EASY when your LO woke for the day - did you wait for her to wake naturally or did you wake her at a set time?

We've had an 'interesting' day today - DD was really tired last night so ended up with an earlier bedtime than usual - she was in bed asleep by 7pm. (DF at 10.15-ish) I heard her 'chattering' this morning around 6.15 but she put herself back to sleep and I left her to sleep - she generally wakes up at 7.15-7.30. However, today she didn't wake up til about 7.45 - we had a little wander round the house (trying to break that cycle of her wanting to eat as soon as she wakes) and I BF at 8am. She was back in bed at 9.15 (still nowhere near that 2hr awake time I know!!) and today she slept for just over an hour - I did hear her at 45mins but she resettled herself for another 20mins or so - unusual nap length? However, she was just chattering to herself so I left her to it for a while - is that wrong? I went and got her after 10mins and she was really happy and didn't seem to want feeding!! So we got ready to go out - we normally head out after the 2nd feed but I thought I would try and hold off a bit longer . . . we made it to our baby group and she was still happy for another 10mins or so after we got there. We got to 11.30 before feeding - so made it to 3.5hrs (she didn't seem to take a full feed tho). The strangest thing was that she then stayed awake for the duration of the baby group and was starting to get grisly just before we left around 1.30 - which means she'd been awake for THREE hours - I think that's record time!! She did fall asleep in her car seat on the way home - and I managed to transfer her to her cot when we got back - she did wake up briefly as I moved her but went back to sleep til 3pm when we had the next feed so another 3.5hr stint. She managed awake time of 1.5hrs and then she had a catnap. She woke at 5.30 and I got her up but she wasn't a happy girl - so I did try for some more sleep . . . I wouldn't normally try and extend her catnap (it's usually about an hour later) but she was quite upset and I was worried about starting her bedtime routine early yet again. She did drift off for another 10mins and woke up much happier . . . we fed at 6.15, had a bath (and a top up) and a bedtime story and back in bed at 7.15. It's been quite a nice day as DD has been relatively happy when awake but also a bit all over the place LOL!!

So . . . is it okay to cluster feed at night? Am sure it says in BWSAYP that you shouldn't do it after so many wks/months. My LO has always done it - even before I started doing EASY - it's very clever that their bodies know to tank up.

As far as wind down goes I do wonder if maybe I start it a bit late . . . but find it really hard to know when DD is going to be tired, especially as we seem to be having varying amounts of A time at the mo!! We normally head to LOs room when I see the cues and we (sometimes read a story - depends on how quickly I've seen the cues!) half swaddle, say goodbye to 'Mr Sunshine', close the blinds, turn off the light and sit for a couple of minutes - it does suggest five minutes in the book, but I don't think we could ever get that far as DD starts to get fidgety after a couple of mins. I put her down in her cot tell her it's nap/bed time and then walk away - she usually talks/moans for a few minutes and puts herself to sleep, tho sometimes I do have to go back and help her - think this is usually when she's got OT and she ends up on her back and for some reason can't find her thumb - she's always been a side sleeper.

Right . . . I think that's enough about me and my day!!

Jules - did you have any luck extending your A time today? And did you manage to extend your first nap by tiring out you LO?

Berni x

[Grace's Mom]

Just real quick as I have to pick up dd from day home...

When you say that you started EASY when your LO woke for the day - did you wait for her to wake naturally or did you wake her at a set time?

Well, my dd is an early riser (6am) so I haven ever had the opportunity to wake her.
She wakes between 5:30-6:30 most days so I start EASY from the time she wakes up.
Now if she was a 7am riser and started to sleep in more and more I would start waking her at 7am to have a more consistant day.  Hope that made sense.

Yes, it's ok to still cluster feed! 

Melissa

[mumofalice]

Just thought I'd pop on and say that we've managed a 4hr EASY this morning!!

DD woke at 7 and chatted for a few mins before I went in to her - fed at 7.15 and we managed 1.5hrs of awake time. DD then slept for just over 2 hours and when I went to her I managed to walk round with her for a few minutes before feeding at 11.15. Have just put her back down for her 2nd nap after 1.75hrs of awake time (inc. wind down) - which is pretty good going for my LO.

Can I just ask what activities you do with your LOs to keep them occupied for all this awake time - as I'm not used to DD being awake for these long periods (used to be an hour inc. feeding, nappy change and even part of the wind down LOL!!) I feel like I don't really know what to do. She seems to get bored after about 10mins of an activity whatever it is . . .

Also, bit of a strange one - but DD doesn't seems to take a full feed when she has the 2nd feed of the day - it's hard to tell how much she gets with BF but she doesn't eat for as long as the first feed . . . or am I just being silly? Is it normal for a LO to eat more first thing cos their tummies are empty?

Apologies for all these questions - but someone always seems to have an answer on these boards - I love it . . . am beginning to wonder how my Mum coped bringing up three children without BW and the boards!!

Berni x

[Grace's Mom]

Congrats on a 4 hour EASY!!!!!

1.  Activity Time 
I remember thinking the same thing...."What in the world do I do with all this time"....and now my lo is up for 5-6 hours at a time.  I know we just rotated....kind of like stations...some floor time, outside time, walks, reading time, exersaucer time, errands, crib time, etc.

2.  Eating
Just like we don't necessarily eat the same amount at every feed they may not need to either. 
If you notice she isn't able to go the 4 hours after the smaller feed that will clue in that she may not be getting enough at that feed. 

Hope things continue to go well! 

[mumofalice]

Okay . . . so the first 4hr EASY may well have been a one off - but at least we did it!!

Second nap was about 1.5hrs and we managed to keep DD occupied for a little while til we reached 3.75hrs so next feed was 3.00. DD had an earlier than usual cat nap (guess that's what happens when you're trying to tweak routines) and was ready for her next feed at 5.00 . . . I do think she's a creature of habit and has always fed around the 4.30 mark - followed by a catnap, last feed at 6.30 before bed and bath. However, last night after a feed at 5.00 we managed to keep her occupied with a bath, bit of massage and some quiet time, followed by a top up and bedtime story. She was in bed at 7.00 - which means her bedtime is even earlier than it has been . . . but she didn't seem phased and went to sleep within a few minutes. She did wake up when DH gave her a DF but her put her down and she talked herself back to sleep. She woke up around 7.00-ish this morning and I left her chatting for a few mins before I went in.

Today we've been on a 3.5hr EASY - just when I thought we might make it to the 4hr mark LOL!! However, 3.5hr is an improvement for us and DD is definitely managing more awake time which is helping.

Once again. thanks for the response Melissa - I do think that DD doesn't get quite enough at the 2nd feed but I can't exactly force feed her, so am just going to have to hope she works it out. Will be rotating activities as you suggested and hopefully I will be able to keep my DD occupied and happy.

Berni x

PS Julesd - are you still reading? Please let us know how you're getting on?

[Grace's Mom]

Glad things are still improving.
All you can do is try.
You are being so smart to not force her the 4 hour EASY!
Way to go Super Mommy! 

[Lisa1022]

Hey guys.  I just thought I'd chime back in and say that I am still experiencing similar issues along the similar path.

My LO is great with 1.5 to 2 hours of A time too.  Sometimes she needs to eat after 3 hours and sometimes she will make it to 4.  Sometimes she will play for 2 hours and only nap 1 hour and then wake hungry.  But it seems like everyday she gets better and better.

And  agree... BW always seems to have the answers!  Thank you so much.

[mumofalice]

Hello again Melissa (and Lisa)

Don't seem to have had chance to get on the computer over the last few days, hence my lack of response.

Melissa - can't thank you enough for your words of encouragement and all your advice. I can assure you that I am not Super Mum tho - or at least I don't feel like one when my LO is heartbroken and having a melt down when we're out because she's tired and wants her cot - she really doesn't seem to be happy unless she's sleeping in her own bed LOL!! I do wonder if I've made her a cot addict by putting her in a routine!! I now understand that if we're going to go out chances are my LO is going to be unhappy at some point - she's not very portable at the moment - but that's who she is and I accept it. I know there are Mums out there who are desperate to get their LOs to nap in their cots and therefore I can't really complain!! I don't want either of us to be in the house all day every day as I would get cabin fever and that wouldn't be good for either of us LOL so I aim to let DD have at least one nap in her cot each day.

My DD is now managing 1.5hrs of A time (sometimes more) and the first nap of the day is usually over the 1.5hr mark (usually about) 2hrs now . . . however, a couple of times it has gone over the 2hr mark - should I wake her at that point? That would bring us on to the 3.5hr EASY unless I can keep her occupied for half an hour. We do seem to manage at least one 4hr EASY a day now - but that normally means her nap has been over 2 hours and am sure I read something on the boards about longer naps (over 2 hours) would affect night time sleep. Don't know about being smart not forcing a 4hr EASY - am just trying to read DDs cues and it seems that she can manage a longer stretch in the morning but I think she likes to tank up in the afternoon. Our 3hr EASY was almost to the minute - now we just go with the flow LOL!!

I am now managing to distract her a little bit when she wakes and hold off on the feeding - even first thing in the morning which I didn't think would be possible . . . I think I may have been feeding her too soon as and therefore she'd come to expect it.

Lisa - sounds like our DDs are following a similar path . . . like you say sometimes my LO wants to eat after 3hrs and sometimes she makes it to 4hrs - tho I've noticed now that she's more likely to do a 4hr stint first thing. Just out of interest, is your DD breast or bottle fed?

Right . . . time to start getting ready for the bedtime routine - don't know where the days go!!

Berni