Can't seem to extend the 3hr routine

[mumofalice]

Good Morning Melissa

Hope the sun is shining where you are - it's a lovely morning in Yorkshire 

Once again - thanks for your response and advice . . . am not sure how I would have got to here without your help 

Feel better already to hear that your LO didn't move to 2 naps til 11 months - I know each LO is different but Alice does seem to be a bit slower than 'textbook' and therefore when I read that at 7 months this should happen and 8 months this should happen it's in the back of my mind iykwim?

At the moment I think DD needs that catnap most days - tho it does depend on what we've been doing. A couple of days ago we'd been out and about and she had a really long A time (she was in her buggy but didn't nap as she's starting to become really interested in what's going on around her!) so she had a late 2nd nap of 2hrs - and therefore it was too late to fit in a catnap. You did mention about shortening naps to compensate to make sure LO isn't going to bed too late - her bedtime is now around 6.30-7.00pm - but the latest I let it go is 7.30pm which I still think is okay. That was after swimming when she was so tired that she did need the catnap so we were later starting her bedtime routine.

Thanks for explaining the EASY thing too - think I take things too literally! - from what I understand as long as you're not feeding to sleep you can feed near to nap (when they move to 2 naps) right?

Didn't realise I was a funny lady - but thanks for the compliment 

Have a lovely weekend

Berni x

[Grace's Mom]

I Wish we could meet...you sound so lovely!

-Yeah, you can or may need to feed close to a nap when they are on two naps.
That's fine
Like you said, just as long as they aren't falling asleep eating.

[mumofalice]

It's probably a good thing we can't meet - I must come across much better on the internet  - I think you would be disappointed! Plus, I would be bugging you for every bit of info and advice - am bad enough with the messaging, can you imagine how needy I would be face to face LOL!

So . . . Alice is having another one of those weird days today - we started off with a slight EW (she'd rolled onto her front and it was about 30 mins early but she didn't want to be settled). However, morning went fine and we had a textbook 4 hour EASY. Then after 1.5 hrs of A time (inc. BF and a bit of solid - tho not really interested) Alice started to show she was sleepy, I knew it was a fairly short A time but thought she might be tired due to EW - so I took her to her room to wind down and when I tried to put her down she got beside herself and had a screaming fit like last weekend - I couldn't settle her (even took her out of the room to see if that would help) so I offered her milk and she guzzled it down - only 2 hours since her last BF. She was quite happy afterwards but as I knew she'd been up for over 2 hrs by then we just stayed in her room and did some low key activity (inc. nappy change) before I put her down for her nap - which was around the 2.5 hr mark (of A time - but inc. 2 feeds iykwim). She went straight to sleep and haven't heard from her yet - it's been nearly 1.5 hours.

So . . . just wondering (out loud, as it were). The crying is so different to any other cry - is it because it's a hunger cry and it escalates as I try and calm her (and I'm not used to the volume because I normally feed her around the same times so she doesn't wait that long for food therefore doesn't get that hungry - hope that makes sense). Therefore is it another little GS? Could it be that it's because she's in pain? - solid food is still new to her and was wondering if that might cause pain - cos she did fill her nappy whilst having that BF. Or I wonder if it's the pain of teeth coming thru - Alice doesn't have any teeth as yet.

Just a bit worried that I might be AP by feeding her - but as she's been inconsolable and it's been the only thing to calm her am not sure what else I could do - PLUS as she's gulping so fast at these times am thinking that she does need the food - rather than the comfort . . . or am I just telling myself that to make myself feel better!!

Once again any thoughts (your pearls of wisdom  ) would be most appreciated - thanks for listening.

Berni x

[Grace's Mom]

Sadly I am no expert on solids and such.
you may want to post on the solids boards to see if it could be the solids. 
Hope everything works out.
It's so heartbreaking when they cry like that

Happy Mother's Day!!!!!

And, I don't think I'd be disappointed with meeting you.

[mumofalice]

Hi Melissa.

Think I will post on the BLW boards to see if anyone else has had a LO in pain with solid foods. It is indeed heartbreaking when you get those screaming cries - just don't know what to do for the best.

For the rest of that day . . . that 2nd nap was 2.5hrs and then she had another feed, a bit more solid and as it was a bit late for a catnap, we did our usual bedtime routine. She woke up early for her DF (so not really a DF!!) so maybe she was just extra hungry (or thirsty? as it's been quite hot) that day. Once again her night time sleep wasn't affected - tho she did wake up earlier than usual . . . but that's because she'd rolled onto her tummy (her new found skill) and she doesn't like it. I could see she was still tired but she wouldn't settle, so we just started our day early - yesterday was okay really. We had a baby sign class and that sometimes disrupts the day but we coped

Read a post yesterday about 1st nap of the day - and as it seemed to be EASY related thought I'd check with you. Believe it or not I have read both the BW and the BWSAYP books (cover to cover and dip into them) but I can't seem to hold the information - it's my mum brain!! The post said something about not letting your LO oversleep during the first nap as you don't want it to be an extension of the nighttime sleep - I thought it was an extension. Usually I let Alice sleep as long as she needs (it's not generally over the 2 hr mark anyway) but for instance this morning she hadn't even stirred at 2 hrs and it was 4 hrs since her last BF - so after reading that post I did go in and wake her . . . if I hadn't read it, I probably would have left her til she woke naturally - which I'm sure would have been in the next 30 mins as I don't think she's ever gone longer than 2.5hrs for a nap. Would love to know your thoughts - as usual!

Thanks for the Mother's Day wishes - tho we celebrated in March in the UK so I had my first Mother's Day then - and I celebrated by being ill the whole weekend!! Hope you had a lovely Mother's Day 

Berni x

[Grace's Mom]

Babies tend to view the 1st nap as night time sleep.
However, I would let your lo sleep until the 2 hour mark, but no more (unless ill or trying to catch up on sleep from a really bad night, etc).

Let me know what they say about the solids! 
Hope that all gets sorted out.

I am sorry you were ill on Mother's Day.
That's no fun.
Thankfully you'll have many, many more to come 

[mumofalice]

Hi Melissa, long time no 'speak'.

Hope you and yours are well - loving the new pic BTW. 

Didn't realise I hadn't replied to your last post. Sorry about that - my memory is so bad these days!!

Alice hasn't had a screaming episode since I last posted (until today but that was due to OT - and I did manage to settle her) and I did post on the solid feeding board regarding food but as everyone said it's hard to pinpoint what might have caused it - could be food, could be wind, could be teething, etc.

Anyway . . . once again I've come back to pick your lovely BW brain 

As I've said before I've been lucky to have been blessed with a DD who is a fantastic night sleeper. She's been doing 12hrs (with DF) for a long time with only the occasional NW - and even then she can usually be resettled without much trouble. I think I mentioned that recently our 12hr day and night had been moving back - which I thought was due to the summer (i.e. lighter in the mornings). We used to be on 7.30am start and 7.30-45pm end of day - this moved back to 7am and then 6.30am and even crept back to 6am. But now the early starts seem to be between 5 and 5.30 - and I was just wondering if you would class it as an EW?

Problem is because we end up starting our day earlier the day finishes earlier - I can't keep my Touchy LO up later to get her to stay in bed later - I've learnt from my mistakes that missing a tired cue results in a very upset and hard to settle LO. And even when she has ended up in bed later (due to a day where we've been out and the routine has been a bit thrown off) she still ends up waking at the same time - which I think is common, in fact am sure we've talked about it before 

When she wakes early she just chats and is quite happy (I can hear her on the monitor) but I left her for 45 mins this morning before going to see her in the hope that she might go to sleep. I think I ended up causing the OT which caused the meltdown I mentioned earlier    as DD ended up with an extra long A time first thing. She didn't give us any sleep cues and went down fine for a 1st nap of 1.5 hrs (this one is usually 2 hrs) - but I think it caught up with her after her 2nd A time of the day. Once again we didn't see any cues but I had my eye on the clock and took her up to start a wind down - as soon as we got to her room she started crying and it took me a good 10-15 mins of sh/pat on my shoulder to calm her - usually we have a story and I put her down in her cot without any problems. She slept for 1.5 hrs and had a 45 min catnap later on in the afternoon - but we ended up with a bedtime of 6.00pm which is even earlier than normal . . . but she was on the verge of becoming OT again at that point!

Apologies for the length of the post - but you know how I like to waffle  - just wanted to give you as much info as I could and as usual would love to hear your thoughts! BTW, have to say I'm not complaining about starting my day at 5.30am - I know that I have to be thankful for my 'sleepy' DD - I don't have to cope with NW (hope I haven't jinxed that by saying it LOL!) but just want to be sure that I'm doing the right thing by starting the day so early . . .

Look forward to hearing from you when you get chance - I know how busy you are 

Berni x

[Grace's Mom]

Hey there 
it's good to hear from you 

If your lo was waking up at 7:30 and now it's 5:30 I would call that an EW as it's a 2 hour difference, vs. 30 minutes, etc.

However, with bedtime moving back and back it's only natural that the morning will be earlier too.

It's such a tricky thing

It's great to leave her in the crib for 45 minutes but you have to count that as A time, or she will get OT.
But since she took two 1.5 hour long naps I don't know that she was super OT, otherwise she would have had 30ish minute naps vs. 1.5 hour ones.

To help get back on track, can you lengthen the cat nap so that she's going to bed at a more 'normal' time...her normal time?

[mumofalice]

Hi there Melissa.

Have been away for a few days visiting the MIL so I haven't had a chance to catch up properly.

We didn't have any trouble with DD when we were away apart from one OT meltdown caused by too long an A time - but once again that was my fault. Although I keep an eye on the clock to see how long Alice has been awake for - I watch for her cues more and sometimes I think she's so engrossed in whatever it is she is doing that she forgets to give them - does that make sense?

Whilst we were away our day started around 6am and finished between 6 and 6.30 - not too bad. DD woke at 5.15 on the day we were due to leave - and that's when we got the meltdown. Anyway since we came back all our mornings have started before 6am - the earliest being today at 5.20.

This week (since we got home) has been a bit of a tough one - waking early in the morning and then waking early from naps . . . I've spent a lot of time sat next to the cot shh/patting to extend naps. I remember you saying to me (when I got back from my holiday last time and DD had a tough week when she got home) that it takes a few days for change to affect a LO, hence the 'bad' week on our return . . . so I've been telling myself it will all settle down in a few days. Fingers crossed 

I haven't tried to extend the cat nap as yet - couldn't face anymore shh/pat when it got to the end of the day - but, due to being out and about a couple of days this week Alice ended up going to bed at 7pm which was close to what used to be her 'normal' time - however, she still woke at 5.30 and the first night I even heard her having a little chat at 4.10am!

I do leave her in her cot for a little while in the morning (despite me being awake and listening to her chattering on the monitor!) in the hope that she might drop back off to sleep. She went through a stage a couple of months ago where she did that (wake at 5.30-ish, have a chat and then snooze til 7-7.30) but it doesn't seem to happen anymore - I know that as soon as I go into her room our day begins, so I try to hold off til 6am at least - but I do count her A time from when she wakes up.

It is indeed so tricky to get times just right . . . just when I seem to have it worked out it all changes again - 2 steps forward and 1 step back . . .or maybe even 1 step forward and 2 back! LOL

Hope all is good with you - loving the new pic of your Grace. Have a good weekend.

Berni x

[Grace's Mom]

Glad you got to go visit MIL!
That's wonderful and I am glad Alice did well.

My lo rarely had tired signs so I had to watch the clock 1st and then cues 2nd (after figuring her needs, if that makes sense). 
Since my dd is spirited, seeming wide awake can really mean OT/OS
I think it's good to use both

Sorry things are out of whack again. NO FUN 

You do the same thing we do in the morning.
DDs always been an early riser so the longer I can keep her in her room, the better LOL

Let me know if things get better in a few days.
I'd try to stick with an earlier bedtime for now, until those naps get better.
It might help with that early waking.
It's strange, even if my dd is not OT, if she's asleep by 8pm, she'll be up at around 6/6:15am. However if she falls asleep by like 7:15 she'll sleep until 6:30/7pm...so strange. 

they are such mysteries.

sleep sweet
Melissa

[mumofalice]

Hi there

Visiting the MIL was good for Alice (she hasn't seen her since she was 4 wks old!) but a tad stressful for me - however, we got thru it and at least Alice was a bit of a star whilst she was there . . . shame she couldn't keep up the good work when we got home LOL!

I am finding it much harder to read the cues - so I do have one eye on the clock . . . but am also finding that difficult too as each day DD seems to want a different amount of A time - sometimes I just think that maybe I'm not great at 'whispering' after all.

Heard Alice on the monitor at 5am this morning (earliest yet ) but I think even she realised that it was too early to start the day - so next thing I knew it was 6.30 which I was really pleased with (bedtime was 6.15-6.30). She was back in bed by 8.30 tho - we had very definite cues and she was asleep within minutes of being put down (which is a good thing, right?). She slept for 1.5hrs, so our first EASY was 3.5hrs. She's been very grisly all morning (think her 2nd tooth is on it's way) and when I took her back to her room (not quite 2 hours later -  no definite cues this time, just the fact that nothing would cheer her up!) she was on the verge of OT - we didn't even have a wind down.

Am really confused - am not sure exactly what I'm doing wrong and/or what I'm doing right - iykwim.

DD still doesn't seem to be able to manage more than 2-2.15 of A time . . . and I keep reading average A times as being much more than that for LOs of her age. Though I did forget to mention . . . a couple of days ago we went to a Mum & Baby group and she was awake and in a pretty good mood for FOUR hours (the longest stretch ever!). She was asleep as soon as she was in the car seat and I even managed to transfer her from it to the cot without her waking up - that hasn't happened since she was tiny! She didn't have a cat nap that evening and went to bed early to make up for it - but it did work. Can't imagine being able to keep her up for 4 hours at home tho - think she was just enjoying her surroundings so much she forgot to sleep LOL!

Am glad that I'm not the only one who leaves her LO in her room in the morning  I figured that as long as she wasn't saying 'I need you' then it was okay - instead I just lie in bed listening to her do her cat impression whilst keeping an eye on the clock - til it gets to 6am 

Once again I have to thank you for your ongoing support and advice - and I also have to apologise for my extra long posts . . . I talk way too much!

They are indeed such mysteries . . . 

Berni x

[Grace's Mom]

Your lo is 5/6 months correct?
At that age my lo was asleep at the 2 hour mark...couldn't handle 3 hours of A time until 10.5 months, so I wouldn't worry.

you don't talk too much.
I like it. 

[mumofalice]

you may think I don't talk too much but here's the proof - my LO has just turned 9 months (yesterday) and I started this thread when she was just about to turn 5 months - so I've been talking for 4 months!! 

so . . . should I be worried about her A times? I think they do need to increase as her naps are shorter (1hr 20mins this morning ) BUT she does show definite cues (some days  ) and as she goes to sleep straight away I think I've time it right . . . and then she wakes up early from a nap again! I'm so confused . . .

hope things are good with you

Berni x

[Grace's Mom]

9 months LOL

Like I said my dd couldn't do 3 hours until 10.5 months...switched cold turkey one day..from 2-3 hours A time.
She did that with the 3-4 hour EASY too...swithced from 1 hour of A time -2 hours in one day.
Oh my crazy monkey girl.

1 hour 20 min. nap isn't that bad especially if she's going to sleep right away    That's all my lo gets in 13 hours now    or less    but it's what she needs.
I'd worry more if she's sleeping 45min. -1 hour

I think she's where she needs to be for now

[mumofalice]

Thanks for the words of encouragement once again 

Not really sure what DD is doing at the moment but I'm telling myself it must be developmental - I like to rationalise LOL 

We're still having EW - at 5.15 the past 2 mornings (she went to bed at 6.15 on night and 6.45 the other) - but as that's between the 10-12 hrs of recommended sleep I guess she's doing okay . . . and we still don't have any NW (fingers crossed and touch wood!) - I just feel more tired now than I did when she was a newborn which doesn't really make sense  Just don't seem to be getting any of the Y time - hope that doesn't come across as selfish . . . it's just my house is a bomb site and I can't seem to catch up!!

DD seems to be able to handle 3 hrs or A time all of a sudden - has done the past few mornings . . . which I find really confusing as this used to always be her short A time! Her naps after a long A time have been around 1 hr 15-20 mins - which I know you say isn't bad - but doesn't that mean that DD isn't making it thru 2 sleep cycles? Think I'm getting more confused the more tired I get LOL!

Love the fact that Grace does everything cold turkey - just upping her A time by an hour without any transition!

Have a good day.

Berni x