7month old- pu/pd not working

[claires mum]

Hey it sounds like you're making great progress.. so proud of you!  When my LO started sleeping better at night..I got less sleep because I was always listening for the usual NWs !!!

Re the yawning and putting down based on that cue...I would probably hold out for the time that you want.  Sometimes the cues can be a little misleading after 6 months + very misleading if OT.  Go figure!  That might get you the 1.5 hours that you need.  Just extend the A time with some quiet activity - read a book quietly together or go for a walk outside.  See how it goes anyway..you can always try it and then say 'well that didn't work so I can eliminate it as an option'.    If she wakes up yawning...I would try and get the extra sleep in..but sometimes that just never works. 

Re the meeting..no advice for you unfortunately.  When I introduced a new routine I basically stayed at home for 2 weeks - no going out at all (!!!).  It will probably mess things up a little but you'll get back on track tomorrow right.

Great that she loves solids.  If you suspect that a food group is going to give gas/be problematic..then don't give it at night. Try for lunch but not for dinner.  At 7 months I would start to mash the vegies rather than puree - they can handle the chunkier texture and it keeps them interested.  My LO gets mashed vegies for dinner - cooked in chicken stock (mmm!).  So it's usually low acid content - potato, sweet potatoe, carrots, peas, pumpkin.  Then a small bowl of natural full fat yoghurt and a few pieces of fruit (banana or pear).  Some bubs get a bit hyped up with the sugar content - mine seems OK.

Re the resettling - yep I know what you mean.  I know straight away if it's going to be easy or difficult.  Do what works for you...you sound like you know your LO VERY WELL and that's really all there is to it.  I think you can take all the methodologies in the world and they won't work unless you can tailor them to fit your child's requirements.  It sounds like PU/PD isn't going to work for her as it is too stimulating.. even your presence can be too stimulating. 

With time and consistency you will get there...you can already see results right???  Great job..keep at it...keep posting.


 

[apayne]

Our sleep seems to be falling apart.

Lately she has been tired about 6:15pm.  I put her to bed.  She still wakes at least 1 time a night but sometimes 3 times.  If I do pd she get upset (losing at least 1hr of sleep-which leads to more ot).  She started waking earlier each morning. 

She has been taking 40 min naps.  I have tried doing pd to extend her naps.  It just makes her mad (yesterday she was so mad that even when I brought her into the living room she was still screaming while I was trying to distract her (maybe a bad idea to use toys-maybe too much stimulation).  I know she is really ot. 

Also when she  is doing a mantra cry do I leave the room or stay with her?

Help please!

[Bryony]

Hi there, and hugs! 

Can you post your current routine and also remind us how old she is now?

What is she doing when she wakes at night?

Re the mantra cry, definitely leave her to it - she's trying to get herself to sleep and will be better off left to work it out herself.

Bryony

[apayne]

She will be 8 months a week from today.  This is the schedule we are trying to follow:

7 awake, bf
8 solids, bath, A
9 ish S (I was working on moving her naps forward to cut out the catnap) naps for 1.5
11 E bf
12 Solids
1ish S (again moving nap later) nap for 1.5
3 E bf
5 solids
5:30 start wind down
bf again before bed
6:30-7 bed (she goes to sleep on her own)
11:30 ish (although sometimes earlier and sometimes later) wakes and cries- on a good night if I feed her she won't wake again.  If I try to do pd or s/pat she gets really worked up.  If she wakes again it is usually around 3-3:30
*The schedule is a little messed up with early wakings and short naps

Yesterday she woke at 6:15 (I know that that is an ok time.)
This morning she woke at 5am.  She was playing for a bit.  Then she started to cry.  I tried pd but it didn't work after 1hr or so I gave up.

If she wakes early I try to adjust the routine earlier.   I feel like I don't know what I'm doing anymore.

Nap today woke after 40 min.  tried pd for 1 hr and then gave up. 

Two nights ago she woke and was fussy but never got upset.  She would go to sleep then she would wake herself up or my toe would pop or something and bring her out of it.  We did pd for 1 1/2 hrs.  She just seemed uncomfortable.  Never seen her act like this. 

Last night she woke around 11:30.  She put herself to sleep (she never really cried), then she woke at 12 something.  I bf after trying to get her to sleep without it. 

She has been acting differently lately.  I'm not sure if there are teeth coming.  she is drooling a bit more but doesn't really bite down when I stick my finger in. 

[Bryony]

Hi there

OK, so forgive me if any of this has already been covered earlier in the thread, but here are my thoughts:

- have you already dropped the catnap?  That last A time is very long and I Am wondering if she may be OT by the time she goes to bed.  Especially if she is now having shorter naps.  On days when she naps really badly I would put that catnap back in - OT is a really common cause of NW

- I think she may need longer A times if she has started doing 45ers, so gradually extending A times would seem like the way to go, as you are doing.

- Focus on A times rather than times of naps - so if she wakes early from a nap, try not to worry too much and put her down the usual  A time later (or slightly less, if it was a much shorter nap than usual).  TBH unless you often have success with PU/PD for extending naps I wouldn't bother - I never had any success with extending naps once Katie got to around 6 months of age

- if she wakes in the night but gets herself back to sleep I really wouldn't call it a NW - we all wake in the night, and that's great that she can get back to sleep on her own

- do you do a DF?  It's around this age that most people drop it, so not sure I would start now if you arne't doing one.... it may be that she stillneeds one night feed at her age...

Does that give you a few things to be starting with?

Bryony

[apayne]

So are you saying to not follow the times I listed in our routine?  I know it is watching for cues and just doing the EASY.  It was nice to know when I could go run errands and what not.  Will it eventually fall into a pretty consistent routine if I follow her cues instead of the clock?

Should I focus on having a 2hr A time, unless her nap was really short I might make it a little shorter?

I don't do a df.  So it is ok if I keep feeding her 1x a night?  Everything I read makes me feel like I shouldn't since she is so old. 

[Bryony]

I would go with cues and A times rather than times of naps...  so if you are aiming for a 9:30 - 11am nap and then a 1:30 - 3:30pm nap, and she wakes at 10:30am, then you have to move everything earlier so that your afternoon nap starts around 1pm instead of 1:30pm. If a nap is really short - ie 45 mins or less, then you may need it to be even earlier as a short nap is not as restful as a longer one...  and then either add in a catnap or go for a really early bedtime to avoid that last A time being really long

In terms of does it settle down?  well - we still get the odd random short nap but in general we know where we are.   As they get older though they do get more resilient to slightly longer A times etc so if we get a short AM nap I move the afternoon nap slightly earlier but not that much earlier, if that makes sense. As they get older (ie near to one year) you can stick to times of the day a lot more, rather than focusing on A times. Just my opinion / experience of course - others may have other views

Feeds - well many do still have a night feed at her age!  We didn't drop the DF until 8 months. Some still have a night time feed at 1 year.  Do you think she is genuinely hungry?  If so then of course feed her

HTH

Bryony

[apayne]

Thanks.  That gives me hope and ideas of where to go to from here.  I appreciate it!

[apayne]

Last night we put my dd to bed at 6:45.  Then she woke at:
11:45pm- bf
1:00am, 4:30am
I'm not sure what to do to get her back to sleep if I don't bf.  Last night I tried laying her down w/ her paci.  She cried.  I was standing there wondering what to do at 1am.  Her cries became more mantra.  She eventually went to sleep.  Then at 4:30 she talked to herself and got herself to sleep for 20 min. (not really a nw) but then at 5 she would accept the put down the with paci.  I tried to bf her on one side.  At 5:30 my husband took her so I could sleep.  I don't want to encourage the 5am waking. 
How do I get her to sleep without bf?
What are we doing wrong? 
She is now taking a nap because she is so tired (7am)  So will our A times and S times switch for today?

[Bryony]

Does shh/pat work for her?  that's what we use....

Bryony

[apayne]

She will stand or sit up.  When I lay her back down she just cries more and more.  Once she is tired enough shush/pat works if she doesn't get too worked up.  I try to just pull her legs out so she is laying down and feel like I'm just knocking her legs out from under her. 

[apayne]

If she is mantra crying and standing up do I put her down or let her do it alone?

When you shush/pat do you pat your lo's back or bum?

How long should we shush/pat-get worked up before we take a break and try again.  I don't want to reinforce bringing her out of her crib when she won't sleep.  She gets very worked up and shush/pat doesn't seem to help.  Only gets worse. 

[Bryony]

Hmm - my LO can't stand up from lying down yet, so I haven't had to cope with the standing up issues!  I think the advice is just to keep lying them down.  Others will have more experience than me and I am sure will have suggestions for you!  Can she get down on her own?

My LO sleeps on her back, so I don't pat, but rest my hand on her chest while I shh - I think it's quite individual how people vary shh/pat to find something that works for them.  If it makes her really worked up though maybe this isn't the thing for you. If she's getting very worked up do you think it's OT?  When my LO is OT she gets into a real tizzy - it can take an hour or so of shh/pat but she will go to sleep eventually.  If I rock her she will go to sleep quicker, but then she gets reliant on the rocking so after making that mistake once we have never gone there again 

Bryony

[apayne]

Thanks for helping me.  I really appreciate it.

Tell me if this is on the right path.  I think I may have been doing shush/pat a little wrong.

Today my dd napped at 8.  Then around her normal s time she was tired again.  I tried doing what I have always done.  She got worked up.  I brought her out of her room, so she calmed down. Then I took her back in and was about to give up again but didn't want her to think she could just cry and get out of a nap.  I decided to hold her and pat her back.  I did that till she was calm and sleepy.  Then I put her in her crib and continued patting her.  Then her pm nap, I had to pat for 5 min in her crib.  Then she slept for 1.5 hrs.    So will holding her (only when she is really upset) and patting to calm her down going to lead to accidental parenting.

[claires mum]

Personally I think that's fine..it's what I'm doing.  I find that there are days when I can put Claire into the cot awake and shh/pat...and other days where I have to get her very drowsy before I can do it.  I might have fallen into the trap of holding her too long when I didn't need to...and she really liked it ( )  and then decided that she wanted that every time she went to sleep.  So I've probably messed it up a little and am going to have to get tough again. 

My view is that I would rather have a stress free nap time...because Claire sleeps better and still thinks naps are positive rather than negative...so I don't mind spending a little more time doing shh/pat.  I might change my mind if she gets really clever and keeps herself awake so she can have more cuddles though.