How to recover from chronic OT??? -17 month old

[Vicku]

I think my DD is suffering from chronic OT and I need some advice on how to get back on track as things just seem to be getting worse and it feels like we're trapped in a vicious circle...
The problem is that she's now taking longer and longer to get herself to sleep (last night it took 1 hr and 15 min) has quite a lot of NW and EW, and usually wakes up too early from her naps. Before this started she was sleeping really well, and never seemed to have any problems going to sleep (unless teething or ill), but don't think that's the reason now. She looks really tired and I'm sure she needs more sleep, but I don't know what's the best way forward..? If I do earlier bedtime she's either not going to sleep for ages or she wakes up really early in am. What's the best way to recover from this OT? How can I get her to sleep more?
Btw we're in the middle of the 2-1 nap switch transition. Have been for a while now...

[em_here]

No advice but I wanted to offer some hugs to you in return for your advice on my sleep thread  This 2-1 thing SUCKS doesnt it, such a tricky time xxx

[Vicku]

Thanks Emma! Yeah, it DOES suck! LOL I never remember having these kind of problems with the 3-2 switch, that just seemes to happen by itself...
 
Well, I'm hoping someone with more experience of this than me will give me some advice. Earlier bedtimes seem to be the answer, so maybe I just have to put her to bed earlier for many days in a row to see if there's any benefits. So far it's not rally seemed to work, and she's already in bed at 6:30/7 as it is (her original bedtime, before the switch, was 7:30 and slept til 7), but maybe I should try even earlier.

[Layla]

Can you please tell me what her routine is like? At 17months I would think she would be ok on just 1 nap so maybe she's taking ages to fall asleep because she can handle more A time. How many hrs sleep is she doing on av at the moment?

Layla

[Vicku]

Hi Layla!

She started the transition at christmas so since then the routine has been all over the place, but at the moment I've done 1 nap for 6 days (before that alternated 1 and 2 nap days)

The routine we're usually getting now is:
wake up - 5:30-6 usually (sometimes 5, sometimes 6:30 a few times 4! -very inconsistent)
nap - 11:30 (length really varies between 1 to 2 hrs and yesterday she woke after 1/2 hr and wouldn't go to sleep for another hr but then slept another hr)
bedtime - 6-7 (usually, have tried earlier but then had a 4am wake up)

I've only done one day with the nap at 11:30, did 5 days at 11:15 now planning to do a few days 11:30 then pushing it later again.
I worked out her av sleep for last 12 days and it was 12.5 hrs. Some of those have been only 9 or 10 hrs at night plus an hr or so nap. Her A times are usually 5-5.5 hrs plus.

Thanks sooo much for your help!

[Vicku]

I've had to do a 2 nap day today as she only had 7.5 hrs last night... was awake between 10 and 2 then woke at 6 really tired but unable to get back to sleep. Now coming down with a cold on top of it too... so maybe that was responible for the NW, but I feel like things are getting out of hand here at the moment.

Today she slept 9:05-9:45 (woke by herself) and 1 hr between 1:40-2:40. I just couldn't keep her up in am. I'm pretty sure it's accumulated OT as she's been getting worse gradually for past few weeks. She yawns and cries a lot but doesn't sleep well. She seems sort of unfocused and sleeps fitfully, cries out a lot.

I know the cold now won't help things, so should I go for really early bedtimes? or do more 2 nap days? 2 naps seem like a step back, but with the EW..? I just don't know what to do anymore??

Please give me some advice someone?!

[Layla]

If she's coming down with something then really try to go with the flow and if that means doing 2 nap days until she's better then do that. For example, my Jasmine caught a cold early this week (nose still a little blocked) and was up for the day at 5am a few days ago. She was very tired & cranky & by 10.30am she was in bed asleep.... she only slept 1.5hrs and that night I put her to bed at 5:45pm and she was asleep by 6pm. I had a brief nightwaking that night but she did sleep until 6.30am the next day. If she's waking up earlier with the earlier bedtime then maybe she only needs about 12-12.5hrs in av & in that case try to work out if she can handle more A time before nap or before bed.

Is she teething her eye teeth at all? When she wakes at night, do you pick her up or how do you respond to her?

If she's sick, I would give her the opportunity to sleep more... so yeah give her an earlier bedtime if she's only on 1 nap and if she's on 2 then normal 7pm bedtime. Try to follow her cues as well.

How does she go to sleep? Do you rock her at all?

[Vicku]

Thanks Layla!

Well she isn't very well with the cold, so that's making things a lot worse, but NW/EW been going on for at least a month now, not every night, but recurring regularly. She used to have 14 hrs/day on av til before christmas. This is the 3rd time she's been ill since christmas though (on antibiotic twice, ear infection then throat infection, now this cold...) so could that have something to do with it as well as 2-1 transition?

Put her to bed 5:30 last night as she seemed so tired. Slept 1 hr, then awake crying and fussing for 4.5 hrs! We'd given decongestant and Paracetamol but it didn't seem to help. Then slept from 11pm-2:45, awake til 3:45, gave Ibuprofen, slept til 6:00, so she only had 7 hrs in total. To be expected as she's ill, but not good on top of how it's already been 

She's recently had all 4 molars coming at once, still got one bottom front tooth to come plus eye teeth, but tried giving medicine (Paracetamol & Ibuprofen) which was really effective with molars, but not seemed to make a difference to NW recently, so don't think it's b/c of teething.

We've always responded the same way to her wakings. We do WI/WO, generally never pick her up, but just lie her back down if she's sat or stood make sure she's got her lovies. I sleep trained her with PU/PD at 6 months & since then she has slept really well in her cot, after wind down we just put her in there, say 'sleep well' and walk out and most times she just sucks her dummy & goes straight to sleep or just chats to her rabbit for a while, so she's very good at putting herself to sleep. Which is great! But means AP doesn't work on her, even when she's ill or very distressed. She WON'T sleep on us, be rocked or go in our bed, as she's not used to it. Seems to be too stimulating for her.

Yeah, I'll just follow her cues and go with the flow for a few days and see this cold through. Then hoping to get back on track so we can settle into a good routine again and push that am nap closer to 12:00.

What sort of A times are generally recommended in am and pm for this age? Is am or pm A usually longer, or are they best being equal?

Am really really grateful for your advice and support! Can't say how much the support on this site means to me! At the moment I don't think I'd cope without it...
THANK YOU! I'll let you know how we get on!

[Layla]

I am so sorry to hear things aren't going well at the moment .

With A times, its usually about 5-5.5hrs either way but with us I found that Jasmine can handle longer A time in the morning (6hrs) rather than before bed plus for some reason she tends to sleep longer for her nap when her nap starts between 11:45-12pm (she wakes around 6am).

I really hope she'll get over this cold/teething soon so you can infact get back on track!

I know exactly what you mean about her not taking very well to AP.... my girls are the same! I remember when we were going through the 2-1 transition and some days she would take a ridicuolous 45min morning nap and nothing in the afternoon & I would even try rocking her to get her to at least have a catnap.... but she would just squirm in my arms and want to get down?!?

Hang in there love and please keep me up to date!

Maybe good idea to have her checked out in case there is another ear infection or something... fingers crossed its just a cold!

[Layla]

How is everything going?

[Aly Mac]

I know Vicku won't mind me adding to her thread  but L has started to get in a similar situation, and Vicku and I are kind of doing the same thing (our kids are talking behind our backs  ).  But what do you do Layla when they have wakings at night?  Like L has had some EW which are now so early they are nw - half hour earlier each morning, regardless of 1 or 2 naps, early or later bedtime.  Today was 4am but got her back at 5.  obviously broken sleep can make them more tired in the am.  do you do a 2nap day or just 1?  or do I just see how she is - I just find that now, if we have a 2nap day, I can't do another one the next day even if she needs it as she just takes ages to go down for both naps and is really cranky.

thanks - and thanks VIcku 

[Vicku]

Hi Layla and Aleesa!

Yeah, our girls have been talking behind our backs and we've been going through this together sort of 
Sorry to hear things haven't been good for you either!

Well, I got so exhausted from not having enough sleep that Lois has spent the last 2 nights at my parents, so that I could catch up on some sleep as things have got on top of me lately. Going trough a bit of a tough time myself at the moment, although this is not the place for talking about that (might be brave enough to write a post about it soon as I'm just coming to terms with it now...) So, that's obviously been a change to her normal routine. She's used to being there though and sometimes sleeps there in the days, has her own cot etc, so shouldn't be too upsetting for her. She usually loves being there. I've been with her in the days and put her to bed, then gone home to sleep, then gone back in am. Going to pick her up soon to take her home.

The last two days have been like this:

Sat 1/3:
awake - 6:00 (but that was after 5.5 hrs of NW)
nap 1 - 9:40-10:40 (woke by herself)
nap 2 - 1:00-1:45
bedtime - 6:45

Sun 2/3:
EW - 5:00 (mym mum gave her bottle at 6:00)
Back to sleep 6:30
awake - 7:30
nap - 11:30-12:40
Tried catnap at 3:30 as seemed tired -in cot 1 hr but no sleep
bedtime - 6:30 (cried out at 11pm but back to sleep)

Today so far...
EW - 4:30 (wouldn't go back to sleep. bottle at 6:30)
back to sleep after bottle ~6:30-7:30ish

They said she was happy to be awake at 4:30!? She's still got a blocked nose but otherwise she's not too bad, not had a temperature or anything so don't think bad sleeping is caused by cold only. So we did 2 days of 2 naps, and then the 1 nap yesterday, but as she's been going back to sleep so late in am, that's kind of been like an am nap I guess too...
I need to get back on track with this now. I just want the 1 nap to get established and get rid of the EW.

I need a plan, but I feel quite confused...
Thanks for checking in on us!

[Layla]

Vicku - that early morning nap is like another nap, really so that will just reinforce the early waking the next day. If she wakes as early as 4.30am then I would treat that as the start of the day rather than let her go back to sleep at 6.30am for the continuation of night sleep. Then try your very best to keep her awake until about 10.30-11am (will be very hard so you might have to take her out of the house!) and then put her down for 1 nap & do early bedtime... say around 5.30-6pm. Then over a few days push that 1 nap out until its close to 11.30-12pm, with a later bedtime & she should get back into the rhythm of waking later in the day.

Aleesa - so when L wakes that early, do you feed her and then try back to sleep or is she up for the day? Is she up and crying? What time does she go to sleep & have you noticed her total sleep adding to more or less 13hrs?

[Aly Mac]

Layla, if it's 4am then I feed her (if she's hungry and she normally is) and then put her back down to sleep.  normally takes an hour for her to settle to sleep, and then really only sleeps another hour or so.  if it's after 5, then she's up for the day.  I can't seem to get any sort pattern with the amount of sleep and corelation with the nw/ew...  very weird.  today was better, 5am, but still not good.  It's the whole early to bed, early wakeup cycle, that i think we are stuck in.....

thanks Vicku....Layla if I have any more probs I'll resurect my other post that vicku and i have been chatting on.

[Vicku]

Hi again Layla!

Right... to continue on from yesterday, after the am nap 6:30-7:30 I thought I'd keep her up til 11:30 and try for next nap then as that's when we've been doing the nap latest on the 1 nap days. Put her in bed 11:30 but she was still awake 12:00 so went in to check and she'd done a poo     Changed her and back in bed 12:05, asleep 12:10. She then slept for 2 hrs which has only ever happened twice before. My DH then put her down for bedtime at 6:20 so she'd be able to catch up on lost sleep for last few days, but she didn't go to sleep til about 7:20. Cried out in her sleep at 11pm and had a brief NW 3:45 and awake for the day at 6:00. So much much better than previous days!
I wonder though if she slept better for nap b/c of longer A or cos she was exhausted but stil OT? And bedtime, still question there really, did she find it hard to go to sleep b/c of needing longer A time or being OT? She still only had 10.5 hrs last night, so 12.5 hrs with the 2 hr nap.
Your suggestion of making everything later gradually sounds good. I'll try going with that and see how we get on.
If I want a 6:30 wake up is 12-1:30/2 a good nap time to aim for with a 7 bedtime do you think? A little confused still weather I'm best off going by set times for a while, go by A times or watching cues?