Exclusively BF - time to drop DF?

[ElsMom]

My DD has started waking before the DF for the last couple of weeks, and I guess that probably means it's time to phase it out.  I don't really know how to do that, though, because she won't take a bottle - so I can't really get more into her during the day, or easily give her less and less over a week or so or water anything down.  She waits for the 2nd side after the first, so even just doing one side and putting her back to bed wouldn't work easily.  I have seen suggestions to move it earlier by 15 minutes each night, but right now she's waking anytime between 8:30 and 10:00 (DF was at 10:30), and I'm feeding her pretty much when she wakes, as long as it's after 9:00.  I'm really nervous that she's going to start waking to eat at 4 or 5 am after I cut out the DF, and I really like that she's able to go easily until 7:00 am before she eats currently.  I feel like if she eats at 5:00 am, then it messes up the whole routine.  I'd love some suggestions from someone who has been there.  I read the FAQ thread and didn't see something that seemed like it would work...  THANKS!

[arabesque]

Looking forward to hearing you replies! But Toby's been even earlier than Elsie - one night 7:05 (after being asleep 10mins) and last night 7:48 (after one sleep cycle). I didn't feed of course, but still want to know about phazing out the DF as he will sometimes/most often wake after 9pm.

[NannyOgg]

Would there be a problem with just continuing to do the DF?  If she's taking a good feed and then settling well for the night, this sounds like something that's working well at the moment.  Eventually it probably will get to the point where you feel like she isn't taking as much, and then you could just gradually shorten it by a few minutes a time.  Alternatively, if you wait until she's drinking well from a sippy cup then she could take that instead and then you'll have something you can phase out gradually.  But I don't know that you'd actually need to change anything at this stage.

[ElsMom]

When she wakes on her own, she's up for much longer than just the DF - usually 45 min to an hour instead of 15 minutes.  And she's waking after the DF about 1/3 of the time, as well.  Last night she was up from 10:00 to 10:45 and then 2:15 until 4:30.  I don't know if those later wakings are related to the DF, but if they are, I can't take it much longer!!  I was planning on continuing the give it until she naturally started taking less, or at least started taking less with her first morning feed, but if it's messing with her sleep, maybe it's time to end it.  Thanks!

[Vicku]

Hi!
Not an expert on the subject but can share what we did as my DD was EBF... Had the same questions as you do as book doesn't really cover bf, but didn't know about this site so just improvised on my own...
Used to do DF at 11 and when deciding to cut it out (at about 9 months) I figured if I made feed gradually earlier by 10-15 mins at a time every 3 days she would eventually be less hungry for the feed, therefore feed less and less too. Supply would go down naturally and as feed got earlier and earlier and supply less and less, plus that she got less hungry for the feed. It worked! When we were down to 40 mins after bedtime bf I just stopped one day and then we never did DF again. I phased it out over a period of about a month and a half though, longer than I first expected, but that was mainly down yo me not being ready to drop the feed, not her 
Anyway, no idea if that is the proper way to do it, but worked for us.

[shivi]

Hi Lisa,

So when Elsie wakes at 2.30 as she did recently was it to eat or to play>>>>?

Maybe the problem is not feeding or the DF but rather too much daytime sleep?
Does she still catnap in the late afternoon???
we had to cut that out really rather early (I think around 9mths) as DS started waking wanting to play....
Also, the night waking ma be due to the fact thats she's learnt soem developmental feat such as pulling to stand (looks as though she's doing that)....
We also had probs around 9mths when Oscar had learned hwo to do this but not how to get himself back down....did PD for a week and it worked,....

We df (but a bottle of EBM) till 10 mths...I was also terrified of night wakings....and stopped when Oscar began taking less and less. I was pumping in work and somehow kept up supply with am, home-coming (4pm) and pm feed and from about 7 or 8 mths when he was faily well estab on solids, only needed one bottle of ebm as snack during the day and used other as DF.

I would say take a look at her developmental feats and her daytime sleep before you try to wean the DF just yet....

shiv x

[Vicku]

Also, the night waking ma be due to the fact thats she's learnt soem developmental feat such as pulling to stand (looks as though she's doing that)....
We also had probs around 9mths when Oscar had learned hwo to do this but not how to get himself back down....did PD for a week and it worked,....

I would say take a look at her developmental feats and her daytime sleep before you try to wean the DF just yet....

You're right Shiv, that happened tp us too! Is worth considering.

[ElsMom]

Thanks Shiv and V!

V - that's similar to what I was planning on doing before the early NW started.  I thought I'd move it up by about 15 minutes every 3 nights or so, but now she keeps beating me to it.  We started at 10:30, and I was going to move it to 10:00 the last 2 nights, but she's been up before that both nights.  She's sleeping really restlessly, too - I can hear her moaning and moving around through the monitor for most of the evening.  I have a video monitor, and she's not awake, just flips her head back and forth and repositions lots.  I don't believe she does this after the DF, just before.  Of course, I'm asleep after, so I'm not as attuned to what she's doing.

Shiv - I wondered if it's developmental, too.  She's been standing for about 2 months, but just figured out how to stand in her crib in her sleep sack about 3 weeks ago - a week or so before this all started.  She's also babbling a lot more, so maybe she's on the verge of telling me something?  

She dropped her catnap about 4 months ago, and only gets 3 hrs of daytime sleep at the most.  Some of her naps have been crap during the last couple of weeks, too - we've had several 40 minute naps (she usually takes 2 x 1 1/2 hrs).  She doesn't seem to be in any pain, and she really doesn't seem OT either, although I know she must be on the short nap days.

As for when she wakes, it depends on the time.  If it's before DF, she just pops right up and stands there jumping up and down and screaming.  I've been settling her back if it's before 9:30, and it usually doesn't take long.  I just pick her up if she's really hysterical, sway with her for a minute, and then put her back and she's usually out within 15 minutes or so.  If it's after 9:30, I go ahead with the Df.  If it's after DF, she does the same popping up and screaming thing until I come for her, and then she just lies there, wide awake, staring at her crib bumper and not sleeping.  If I sit down or leave the room, she jumps back up and starts with the screaming again.  Last night I did shh/pat from 2:15 until 3:15, gave her some water at 3:15, and then she started screaming and crying and I couldn't calm her, so I fed her at 4:00.  It was still another 25 minutes after that before she fell asleep.  I don't really think she was hungry, just needed help calming down.  She doesn't feel hot or cold, and it's not really her pain cry, just her frustrated 'why can't I sleep?' cry.  This is similar to what she did around 5 1/2 months, just before she started crawling, sitting up, pulling up, and popped 2 teeth (that all happened within the same 2 weeks).  Maybe she's about to walk, talk, and have 2 more teeth?  

[Vicku]

Maybe she's about to walk, talk, and have 2 more teeth?  

Well, all those are things to come and do affect sleep. Have you tried WI/PD/WO (and repeat as needed) ?? That's what I did (and still do sometimes although hardly ever need to anymore) to show her it's sleeptime, show her you're there, but also that she has to go to sleep independently.
For some babies shh/pat gets too stimulating and/or becomes a prop at this age.

[ElsMom]

Well, sshh/pat is definitely a prop, and has been for a while.  I've just been hoping that as far as NW go, I wouldn't have to break the prop, I thought she'd stop waking (as she did for 2 months prior to this round).  She goes down on her own at bedtime and after DF, but I shh/pat for naps... I know I need to stop, but it's usually only about 5 minutes, and I haven't wanted to mess with it.  Of course, when it's an off night and she wakes for 2 hours, or when it's an off day and she needs 20 min of pat to go down for a nap, then I know I need to stop.  So you don't think the wakings have to do with the DF?

[shivi]

Hi Lisa,

It all sounds developmental to me...you may need a week of WI/PD/WO as Vicku says...try that and see what happens.
At this age, Oscar had a dummy for those times that he woke up and was able to find them (glow in the dark ones) himself as we could see on our video cam. He used the dummy from birth to about a month ago only in his cot and weaning was no problem.

I just remember one week of really bad evenings just after Christmas Hols so he would have been 8.5 mths when he was standing in grobag but unable or unwilling to allow himself drop down and go back to sleep....it was also early SA when I think back now as we had been together constantly for 2 weeks over Xmas hols and then suddenly, bang, Mummy was back in work after such a two week period of stimulation, illness, travelling etc....
We did WI/PD/WO for a long weekend or about 4 nights and that was it.....try that before dropping the DF.

BTW...how is her solids intake, especially before bedtime?
p.s. has she a lovey or a special teddy? At this age, after me trying my best to introduce them to Oscar, he picked his own..which he still has for naps and night time sleep. These loveys do become very useful in second half of first year and beyond especially if they are only out and about during nap and night time sleeps, a more advanced sleep cue if you like!


Take care...

Shiv x

[Vicku]

Yep, agree with Shiv... would try WI/PD/WO first to establish better sleeping, as you can then phase out DF easier too. Of course it's hard going to start with, but soo worth it! Lois also had/has a dummy, and after they learn to put it back themselves it's not considered a prop. If she's never had one before though I'm not sure I'd introduce one now... The lovie and cuddly rabbit she has also helps as a sleep cue.

To me it sound like she's waking more cos of developmental issues and/or teething (which is unavoidable and which there WILL be more of) and if shh/pat has become a prop for her it might be that she expects it at every waking in oder to go back to sleep.
If you decide to do the WI/PD/WO, I'm happy to be here for you with support.

[ElsMom]

Thank you both so much!  Let's see...

No paci.  She's always refused one, just like she refuses the bottle. 

She eats pretty well - we BF every 4 hours during the day, plus the DF, so 5 times total. She has 3 solids meals as well - Breakfast: 2.5 T cereal mixed with 2 ice cubes of fruit; Lunch: 2 ice cubes of veggies and 1 cube of fruit; Dinner: 2 cubes veggies and 2.5 T cereal.  At each meal she also has something to actually eat, either cheerios or toast or a veggie pancake.  She just figured out how to eat stuff like that about 2 weeks ago (after 2 months of spitting anything out that wasn't pureed), so we haven't started any small pieces of veggies or fruit yet.  Just bought a melon, though - might try that this weekend.  I just thought of this - DH has had to start working more the last two weeks, and has been getting home about an hour later than usual - only about 30-45 minutes before her bedtime routine begins.  So sometimes her dinner is 20 - 30 minutes later than it used to be, but we haven't moved bedtime.  And she no longer has "daddy time" while I cook dinner - now she just hangs out with me in the kitchen, playing with her bowls and spoons.  Could that somehow be related?

Lovey - I've tried to have a couple of things in the crib with her, and she just wants to play.  I tried a small blanket and then a couple of small stuffed dolls.  If they're there when she goes down, she'll sit there and play instead of sleeping.  I then tried to put them in so they'd be there when she woke up, and after 2 days, she started waking up early from naps to play with them.  Did I mention that she's spirited?   

I'm such a wuss - I know I need to do WI/PD/WO, but I know it's going to be such an ordeal.  I did PUPD with her several months ago to break her of taking all of her naps in her swing, and the first time she cried for an hour and a half.  I'd kind of like to get through this "odd" time and do it when she's otherwise sleeping well, you know?  But I know you're right - there will always be more teeth...  She does know how to get herself back to sleep unless she stands up.  She was doing lots of EW last week, and this week she's still waking around 5:00 am, but going back on her own.  It's if she stands up then it's all over.  She can sit back down, but not get back to her comfy place.  So if I did WI/PD/WO, would she eventually stop standing up when she wakes?  I think she could get back to comfy if she wasn't in her sleep sack, but I know she associates it with sleep, and it's still cold here.  We went through this same thing when she learned to roll over - she'd roll over as soon as she woke up, and I'd have to go readjust her.  Even though I didn't talk to her or anything when I rolled her back over, that went on until she learned to right herself.  It's always something!!!

Ok, I think I just babbled on for a really long time!  But I guess the consensus is to just survive and then think about stopping the DF when she goes back to normal...  And when she goes back to normal, I need to convince myself to work on the shh/pat addiction as well. 

[Vicku]

Just be consistent in how you respond. She will need help getting down from standing til she learns how to do it herself. From what I've learned having a part spirited child is that you have to be very consistent, and they do take longer as they are so stubborn, but the firmer you are in your approach, the quicker they take to it.
Change in routine could have something to do with it... also if she's eating solids later, could she be taking less at bedtime feed as not as hungry and then make up for it with wanting earlier DF? Just a thought...

[shivi]

Hi Lisa,

You absolutely HAVE to be consistent with a spirited one (and that continues to be important later). Mine is extremely so....My DH somehow thought he'd "grow out" of his spiritedness...but they don't.

You will be in for a week or so of screaming (without tears let me guess) but then think of the independent sleeper you'll have on your hands. In order to teach her to get back down to comfy position maybe play at it during A time during the day....

As far as loveys are concerned, just keep offering them...like I said, Oscar picked his own suddenly....not of one the twin bunnies I had been training him with nor the taggy blankie...but a soft bunny who had originally been attached to a picture frame....

too late for introducing the dummy for sure....

As for solids, well, I think you could maybe increase them a little....I'm not sure but perhaps she could be eating more solids??? Anyone else anything to say on that one??? try one more cube and see if see whether or not she will take it.... In those days Oscar was a hoover literally and would actually overeat given half the chance...
but yes, I would say teatime has to end at least an hour and half before bedtime feed for it to be a decent milk feed, then watch for changes in waking times....

you'll have to do the WI/PD/WO though....and just like with all of these trials (I am now putting off moving DS to big bed as I am terrified of the effect it will have on his sleep) it's usually the thought of it that is worst.... She's still young so look at it as your chance to make her an independent sleeper....you'll be thanking yourself forever more!

good luck!