I really need some help here ... seriously considering giving up BFing

[*Nicola*]

Ladies,

I really feel like I need some help here.  Not sure what is going on and how I can fix it, but I am really not enjoying BFing right now and I am constantly considering moving to formula.  Not because I think it will solve the problems but because DP can help share the feeding with me. I really want to keep BFing, and even talking about moving to formula makes me sad 

Anyway, from what I can see we seem to be stuck in a cycle of not so great day feeds and good bedtime/night feed.  Day feeds went to pot at 12 weeks around GS time and when she started showing reflux signs and have been mixed since then.  We are giving gaviscon and having no crying/fussing at feeds, no spit up nothing.  Since the 4 month growth spurt I think my supply is not matching her demand so we are often doing EAEAS or EAEAEAS in one cycle.  She will feed both sides, finish, fuss around, make loud squaky noises, chew around at my shoulder, go back on but just not seem satisfied with the feed.  Does that make sense?  Then the starts the loud squaky noises again!  These noises are her unhappy noises as she doesn't ever really cry.  So we end up doing the EAEAEA stuff. 

Last growth spurt we were in the same position but with 3 days of pumping we were back on track, this time I just can't seem to get just out of the cycle.  I have been trying to express directly after feeding for 15 mins until I get another letdown, but I am finding it impossible to do what with Ciara, nursery, Callie, Callie's EAEA pattern.  I am drinking water until I am spending most of my life in the bathroom! I am taking the fenugreek. Anything I am missing?  I am trying to extend all naps to make sure she is well rested and hungry when she gets up but even then she is often not taking a good feed.  Should I be trying to stretch her to a 3.5/4 hour EASY again?  Should I be offering a top up feed before naps?  Can't really see the woods for the trees, kwim?!

Then there are the nights    She feeds from 630-7 at bedtime and then lately has been back up for a feed at midnight.  Sometimes it is later, so between midnight and 230. Hardly ever later now.  At 8 weeks she was going 7-3, so I just feel we are really going backwards.  Anyway, the night feed in itself is fine.  I am really not expecting her to go without a night feed.  So the issue is that she wakes at midnight, or sometimes at 2 and I suspect she isn't really that hungry. She won't settle without a feed, so I try to feed her and she isn't interested, just pops off and smiles, looks around etc.  So I put her down, say goodnight and she fusses and so on and so on.  This happens regularly at nights, and other nights she feeds well and goes right back to sleep.  I know lots of it is developmental but I am sure there is feeding things going on too.

Last night she was up at 1150am, I tried to feed her but she was just looking around, tried both sides but nothing.  Put her down and she talked to herself for 30 mins then started fussing, tried to feed again and she half heartedly fed.  Put her down and she fussed/squaked for ages.  This went on until 2am when she got OT and started screaming.  Tried to feed again at 230pm but she wasn't interested. I ended up swaddling her at 3am and she went right to sleep, with effectively not much feed, then I woke her at 745 this morning.  Not interested in feeding.  It is now 10am and she hasn't fed properly yet.  *groan* .. so we seem to be back in the cycle. 

So .... what should I do during the day?  What should I do at nights?  Keep offering breast right away?  Try to wean midnight feed in the hope she will settle and wake later in the night?  Re-introduce DF, which we stopped as she was doing DF and 230am waking.

Writing it down, I know it doesn't look *that* bad compared to what others have been through.  I feel like a wimp for considering giving up  .  But it just seems to have been going on for so long.  I am also up twice a night with Ciara, checking her blood sugars so it is just killing me at the moment ... and not helping supply I suspect 

If you have got this far, thank you    It can't have been easy!! Think I really needed to get all of that out.

 

[LucyA]

{{{hugs}}} Nicola. Sorry I don't have any advice though...

[Aly Mac]

I don't have any specific advice but did want to send you some hugs. It must be harder when you have a nother too, as you don't have that time to really sit and relax.  That was the only other thing that I know helped me, advice that the Aus BF assoc gave me. was to sit and take the time.  smell her head, take it in, so you would get a letdown.  I would think that the stress you are having over this doesn't help things, but not sure what you can do to make it better. easier said than done.

take care, and I hope you get some better advice!

ps> is she putting on weight ok???

[*Nicola*]

  Thanks guys 

Just read this back ... what a pity party! 

Yup, she is putting on weight fine, no issues there. 

Aleesa, even at 3am as I was sat sh'ing her watching her (finally) drop off to sleep I was just thinking, 'oh i love you SO much, precious little thing'.  I really want to make this work for her, you know.

 

[Mum of 3 + 2 stepkids]

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Oh Nic, where to start. You know i have through been all of the above, you really have to tell yourself it won't last. I know its been going on for a while now, i just think like me you try so many different things to get through the 'GS' our lo get very confussed. Don't you think?

Right before we go on lets get you feeling a little better.

erm.........ah just reading your quote says it all:

"A baby is born from the dreams of your heart, and becomes the love of your life." A good start!

Think of all the help you have given me over the past weeks, all such a wonderful help. Actually it might be worth while taking a look at our posts, advise you have given to me would be great for your self also.

'TALKING BOOBS' I've thrown that in to give you a smile

Ok,
Pumping - do you give what you pump at the end of the next feed?
Bedtime - do you swaddle when you put her to bed? As this def makes Zane sleep better.
Last feed - could you maybe get dp to give ebm in bottle for this feed, thats what i do and it takes him through till 4ish. I give 6oz, also this will give you a rest. You could also pump at this time for the bottle and agian an hour later. If she does go through you could then pump before you go to bed.

I think sticking to a routine (whatever it is) is really important. Even if you start now or tomorrow. I have put 3-4 days to one side this week and no matter what i have been sticking to it. Work out what you HAVE to do in the day and work the feeding and pumping around it, this is my day (as i know yours is sort of the same)

6.30 feed + pump
8.40 kids to school
9.30 feed -give pumped from before + pump
11.30 get Pops from school
12.30 feed - give pumped + pump
3pm pick Dylan from school
3.30 F-GP + P
do dinner and kids club
6.30 DP Feed Ahh................relax!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nic i wish i could be there for you and give you a hug personaly

Kate

[lisi's mum]

Nicola,

{{{{{{{{{{{{{hug hug hug hug hug}}}}}}}}}}}}}} that's the big problem with breast feeding - when it's good it's wonderful, when it's bad it makes everything seem SO terrible.

One thing springs to mind - fenugreek works much better when taken with blessed thistle - 3x3 capsules and about the same fenugreek - you should smell like your local curry house, if you don't, up the fenugreek.

I personally would be trying to move her away from so many little snacks and back to a good feed with maybe a snack before a nap - I just can't hack having a baby permenantly attached to me. The quick snacking is also what's probably led to the increased night wakings - she needs to get those calories in.

Between 2 and 6 months distraction typically sets in with 4 to 5 months being the very worst - her boundries have expanded and the world is super interesting. Are you moving her to a quiet place to feed? Tried wearing a necklace or such like that she can play with at the same time?

Stress is another supply buster, and if I had the days you describe I'd be pretty damned stressed out. How is your pumping? If that isn't stressful in itself why don't you pump some to let somebody else deal with a feed for a few days, use the time to soak in the tub or such like?

I would re-introduce the df and keep just offering the breast in the night straight away. The morning feed wasn't great you say - if you can face it maybe hold off feeding from about 5 onwards. I know this always backfired on me meaning Lisi wouldn't go back to sleep until I fed her. On those days I caved in she just got a later breakfast - didn't bother with 7, but made it right before her nap instead. Threw the EAS out but she went down awake, and I remained sane (ish).

One day at a time
 

[*Nicola*]

  Thank you guys 

Callie is sleeping, DP has just put lunch out so I'm going to have some relaxing time.  Will be back in a bit to respond though. 

   What would we do with BW? 

[RachelC]

You've gotten great advice, I'll just throw in some {{{hugs}}} 

[shivi]

Hi Nicola,

I remember Oscar's 4 month growth spurt so well.(it was just before I went back to work, that's why)...he had been doing well feeding both sides and draining both sides for about a month or six weeks but suddenly started to peep his head around my back, after draining no.2 and looking for what my mum called a third booby! I did a yield to find out I had plenty of milk (can't remember but def similar to what he should have had in formula) but it was just that he was such a big baby that milk alone wasn't satisfying him. He began waking at night time again, even though with DF of ebm he had slept right through till 7 since about 13 or 14 weeks

...so against all the medics in this country (Poland), but with Tracy Hogg who I think in book 3 talks about ealier introduction of solids, I introduced baby rice on my milk at 18 weeks....and then things went back to normal... He had rice and ebm morning and evening, very little but enough to satisfy him much more and then we moved onto pears, apples, carrots etc in quick succession from about 5 mths....

just a thought....if Callie is on upper half of girls centiles then maybe it's time for some tastes...

At his christening

[Maffoos mummy]

Hugs sweetie. You've been given great advice so far,just wanted to throw a slightly different suggestion too. I nearly gave up bf at around 3 weeks,lots of well meant "you're milk's not enough to satisfy him" comments from older generation,but ended up carrying on until I returned to work at around 8 months. I never had any success expressing I'm afraid but from that time onwards dh would give him the df as formula in a bottle. This would give me a break-I'd go into bed and not sleep,but be reasting until they came back in-gave dh some nice bonding time,and also made sure he was really tanked up for the night. Hope things settle down for you,it's really tough sticking with bf (especially juggling another LO too),no-one would judge you for any decision you come to,but think it through and do what's best for you and your family.xxx

[Mum of 3 + 2 stepkids]

oh i forgot to say i do a 4am ish feed too and i also pump then for the 6.30 top up.

Kate (Friend) x

[yaya]

Massive hugs sweety, It really is hard work and well done you for wanting to do your best!! Pats on the back! You've got great advice so far and as you know I have gone through a lot trying to BF emily so if I can be of any use....buzz me! I totally agree with ALL that PP have said but I just wanted to say that you shouldnt feel bad for considering formula. Formula isnt evil and it also doesnt have to mean the end of BFing. My supply suffers immensely under stress and unfortunately I cant get emily to take formula so for me its not a option atm BUT if it was I would fully support one formula feed to 'fill her up' whilst taking the stress of you and giving you time to express. TBH if u have been expressing you should see an increase in supply after a few days and you seem to be talking about wks which makes me think that maybe the whoòle thing is stressing you our a bit hence the reluctance of the supply to go up? make sense?
Also when I was Bfing thomas I got some great herbal supplements which I cant remember the name of atm but will go and check as I still have some ( can also send u some over if you like....it made a MASSIVE diff to my supply when I was BFing thomas)
Have you started solids with Callie? I can't remember exactly how old she is but think you said she's a big girl...could she be ready for some solids?

[shivi]

I would really try some small amount of solids if she's around the 7kg, 15 pound mark...

Have you done a yield before a feed

(I used to be so scared of them and the result...thinking it would mean failure but it gives you a realisitic picture of how much you are actually producing, and don't forget, Callie can get 1 to 2 oz more than even the best pump when she feeds herself, so add an oz or two in your calculations).....

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Shiv

[Mum of 3 + 2 stepkids]

Hi shiv, when you say have you done a yeild yet, how do you go about doing it?

Kate

[*Nicola*]

Hiya again,

Thank you everyone SO much for replying.  It is so encouraging and comforting to have a bunch of people on your side, cheering you on and helping to make things better.     Today I've made sure that feeds are 3 hours spaced at the minimum and apart from the morning feed, Callie has taken big feeds from both sides each time    I've also been expressing the first side after the feed so hopefully we'll see an improvement in supply soon.  I've given her a top up before naps but she's only had 2 x 45 min naps today, which I know are due to last nights NW.  We'll see how tonight goes.

Just looking through the replies now ...

Callie doesn't take a bottle. Totally refuses,  so whatever I pump is being used for gaviscon or frozen.  I really need her to take a bottle for my own sanity but since the growth spurt has made everything screwy I have been reluctant to only offer the bottle in case it really affects my supply.  It was our plan to try it this weekend but after last night I really couldn't face it.  It's on the agenda though as I really think that having her take a bottle of EBM or formula would make me feel so much better.  And DP really wants to take some of the stress from me I know.  Fingers crossed she'll take one!! Someone once suggested trying it for the DF when they are sleepy and relaxed, so I might give it a go tonight. 

Michelle, when I posted about knowing others have been through much worse, it was you I had in mind.  I really admire all you have done for Emily in terms of bfing (and everything else  When I say I don't want to more to formula what I really mean is that I don't want to stop bf'ing.  Not that I disagree with formula or anything. If she would take a bottle I'd give her whatever 

I am going to reintroduce the DF tonight.  DP suggested this last night and when I told him others here had mentioned it he said 'that way my idea' bless him.  Ideally she would take a bottle at this feed to allow me to get to bed earlier if need be.  ATM I am in bed by about 9pm! But even if I have to do DF myself  I'd rather go to bed at 10pm afterwards knowing I'll not be up at midnight.

Katie, she is very easily distracted.  I have been offering feeds in her room with the noise machine on, but not all of the time.  I will begin to do them all in there and see if it makes a difference.  I'd stopped wearing necklaces as her twiddling them drives me batty!  Have just found one on a cord so will give it a try. 

We usually only have one night waking.  Hopefully she'll get back on track and feed right away when she wakes, stopping the feeding/OS/OT cycle that I think she gets into. 

Siobhian, I remember the exact same thing happening with DD1 after her 4 month growth spurt too!  At about 5 months we started to introduce formula as I was returning to work.  We'd been told to start solids with her at 16 weeks so I think the combination helped settle her down. She loved solids and just seemed much more settled once we started.  DP has suggested started some rice cereal, but tbh I am reluctant to add another factor into the equation at the moment.  I want to be sure of what is going on, without having something else to wonder about!  If things are still hairy in a wee while then I'll relook at it!  I think Callie is about 16 lbs now. 

Kate  I am going to try to stick to a plan too.  It is exactly what I done to get from a 2 - 3 hour EASY and again to a 4 hour EASY, so I know it works.  Nice to have you along to compare notes with.

Oh ... Callie up after a token 30 min nap!! So OT but not long til bedtime now. 

  Thanks so much guys.  Doubt I'll be back on tonight but I'll check in tomorrow with details of the night!

Thank you so much everyone x