Author Topic: Need help tweaking routine pls!  (Read 4281 times)

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Offline nike

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Need help tweaking routine pls!
« on: March 17, 2008, 05:21:33 am »
I've been posting over on toddler sleep as my 34 month old is starting to drop his daytime nap.  Coincidentally, my youngest has now decided to change his routine on me and I think he's starting to go from 2 to 1 naps.  I'm not sure how to tweak his routine and need some help ASAP!  He's 15 months old, 13.5 adjusted.

He is a very routine bub.  Wakes at approx 7 a.m.  If he's not up by then, I wake him to keep the day on track.  First nap is at 9 a.m.  His A time is super short (2 hours) and he's usually exhausted by then.  He sleeps a good 2 hours.  Again I will wake him if he's not up by 11 a.m.  He then goes down for last nap at 2 p.m.  and sleeps till about 3.30/4.  Bedtime is approx 7 a.m. 

In the last week it's been slowly changing, in that he's not really ready to go down for his first nap so early.  I've been stretching him out another 1/2 hour till 9.30 and he's just about cactus by then and will push his sleep out further til waking at 11.30.  Today he started getting cranky at around 2, so I thought I'd give him his bottle a bit earlier.  Then I tried putting him down 1/2 an hour later for his 2nd nap, at 2.30, and he put up a real fight.  I got him up and read some quiet stories, then tried again at 3.  Again he put on a turn, so I ended up giving in and giving him another bottle, which he demolished (another 220 ml :o) and then he was happy to be put into his cot.  Lately he's also been faffing around at night-time, not really ready for bed till 7.30 p.m.

So...my q'un is do I try going cold turkey and put him down for the one nap at about 11.30 or just put him down a bit later in the morning and cut that nap short, then aim for a later arvo nap?  My problems are that I don't know he'll last till 11.30 without having a complete meltdown and (b) I don't want a too late nap to mean a later bedtime.  At the moment, with DS1 dropping his day nap, I'd ultimately like to put the 2 boys to bed at a reasonable 7 p.m. bedtime.  Any ideas??

I need to know ASAP as we have activities/playgroup, etc, committments and I just don't know how I'm going to juggle around the times now ??? ???  Previously I'd wake DS2 after about an hour into that first nap, go out and about and be home in time for lunch, to put DS1 in bed for quiet time.  Now it's all mucked up and I don't know what to do!!!

I should post our previous routine up till now.  DS2 was premmie and has developmental delay and has always been a high sleep needs kid.  There may or may not be an underlining cause for his love of sleep.  We are yet to get in to see his paed about that.  I think as this routine stands, it's really the routine of about a 9 or 10 month old bub.  I stand corrected on that!

Wake 6.30/7
B'fast, play
8.45 - bottle
9 - nap
11 - Wake
12.30 - lunch
1.45 - bottle
2 - sleep
3.30/4 - wake
5.15/5.30 - dinner
6.45 - bottle
7 - sleep

He generally sleeps right through the night.  As I said, these times are starting to get later as I think he's extending his A time, but I don't want the day to end later, iykwim.  I also think we have a bit of a bottle/nap association (he doesn't feed to sleep though and is a self-settler) so I'd also like some ideas on when to give bottles.  Ideally I'd like to drop one in the process of a routine change, which I thought would be easier when we went from one nap to two.  HELP PLEASE!!
ME: 37 (IVF survivor of 4 m/c + 1 ect)
DH: 36 (my hero)
DS1: 20/05/05 (our miracle natural conception)
DS2: 18/12/06 (2nd miracle; 5 weeks prem)

Offline Aly Mac

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Re: Need help tweaking routine pls!
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2008, 09:41:58 am »
Hi there,  I'm still going to pop this over to toddler sleep Nike, as he is older than 12months.  This will enable more age appropriate advice.

thanks, and I'm sure someone will be able to help you.
Aleesa.....


Offline Aly Mac

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Re: Need help tweaking routine pls!
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2008, 09:52:24 am »
Ok, I have some advice all the same  ;)

There are some really helpful links that I'll post below to help you with this transition.  You are starting the 2-1 switch, but certainly not ready for one nap.  Have a read through and see if you have any questions we can help you with.

10/11 months and sleep gone wonky?

long first nap and problem with 2nd nap

2-1 nap transtion. the how, when and the bumps


the first link may not seem like it's appropriate, but has relevant info in there. You may benefit from shortening the first nap now that he is going down later, and then he will be more tired for his second nap.  As he is getting older, he will need less day sleep, but I would cut it back slowly to start with, say by 15mins, but have the second nap at the same time as normal, 2pm.  it may take a few days to kick in, and if it doesn't then cut it down by another 15, but stil keep the same 2pm time.

It's so good he loves his sleep so much!  Is he having any other sleep problems? early wakings or night wakings?

I hope this helps


Aleesa.....


Offline nike

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Re: Need help tweaking routine pls!
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2008, 10:32:10 am »
Ah, someone's in denial their bub is actually a toddler now :o  Thanks for moving this post over!

Aleesa, thank you, thank you, thank you!!  After putting him to bed tonight (again 7.30 as he wasn't ready by the normal 7 p.m.) DH and I sat down and were trying to work through a new routine for both the boys, really.  DH thinks the ultimate goal is to aim for a sleep in the middle of the day (yes) and to stretch him out til then, but I really don't think he can handle that much A time just yet.  There is also the added problem with that, that he will have to go to bed super early - and I don't want to revisit the early days where as a small baby we had two different routines for bub and our toddler (DH did DS1 and I did DS2's) and I felt like I hardly saw either of them, not to mention not being able to eat as a family, the boys have a bath together, etc.  I've just now read your reply and it's given me some confidence that what I was aiming for in regards a new routine was the right way to go!

Today was a bit mucked up as we've had visitors, but this is what happened:

Woke him at 7.15
Nap at 9.30 (he was pretty ok with this time)
Woke 11.30 (I normally wouldn't have let him sleep this late but my mum was babysitting while I took DS1 to the dr)
Nap at 3.20 (tried from 2.30)
Sleep at 7.30 (tried from 7)

So tomorrow I am going to try putting him down only slightly later (say 9.30 instead of 9 a.m., which I know he can handle) and then wake him after an hour.  I often have to cut his morning nap short otherwise it's almost next to impossible to get out of the house with DS1 before he needs to be back home for his quiet time - or at the moment a nap every other day.  If he's then waking at 10.30, I'm almost certain he'll be ready for his next nap at 2, or even 2.30 seems ok and not too late as to interfere with bedtime. 

I think he may also need more A time in the afternoon now, so do you think it's ok waking him again after an hour (at say 3.30) and then aiming for a 7 p.m. bedtime or do you think he might need more?  It just seems like we're running out of time then to make that earlier bedtime.  That also means only 2 hours daytime sleep and at the moment he's having anywhere from 3 to 4 ??? ???  I think he's reasonably flexible, it's just I really want him in bed by 7 so both boys can go down together.

What do you think??

BTW, thanks for the links.  I'm off to look at them now :)
ME: 37 (IVF survivor of 4 m/c + 1 ect)
DH: 36 (my hero)
DS1: 20/05/05 (our miracle natural conception)
DS2: 18/12/06 (2nd miracle; 5 weeks prem)

Offline Aly Mac

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Re: Need help tweaking routine pls!
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2008, 21:33:43 pm »
Nike I would not give him that much A time in the between.  When a nap is shorter they can't go as long between the next nap.  So if he's used to 2hr nap time, cutting to an hour will be an adjustment that will take time.  This was our routine when L was still taking 2 naps, just before the switch:

6/6.30 wake
9-9.45 nap
1-2.30 nap (put down at 12.45 for 1pm sleep)
6.30/7 sleep

so with you, you can adjust to this to start with

7 wake
9.30-10.30 nap
2-3.30 nap
7 sleep

I know it seems like less A time, when you are used to pushing for more, but there is less sleep in the first nap as I mentioned above.  This will balance out the naps, to enable a 7pm bedtime.

I hope this  helps.
Aleesa.....


Offline nike

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Re: Need help tweaking routine pls!
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2008, 22:37:05 pm »
Hmm, I had thought he was dropping from 2 -1 nap, but you're right, he's most likely just ready to extend his A time, particularly between waking and that first nap.

We haven't had any early wakings or night wakingst thus far, touch wood!

I was just reading on one of your links about the shortened A time with cutting a nap shorter.  As you say, it's a little confusing when the aim is actually to extend A time, not shorten it ???

It looks like I may have to take things a little slower in transitioning him.  I had hoped to be able to jump straight into dropping that a.m. nap so that we can get out and about.  I feel like poor DS1 has cabin fever and that he's missing out for the sake of DS2's sleep :'(  I had just managed to find a great playgroup but now wiith this new routine it looks like I'm going to have to give it a miss till he drops that a.m. nap altogether.  It goes from 9.30 to 11.30, and his a.m. nap will be right smack bang in the middle.  It's so difficult juggling two routines!!  Yesterday I found it really difficult as by the time I got DS2 down for that p.m. nap, DS1 was ready to come out of his room after having no nap (but he was playing "quietly" for 1.5 hours).  I was exhausted!

Thanks again for your VERY helpful advice.  I'll definitely let you know how we get on :)
ME: 37 (IVF survivor of 4 m/c + 1 ect)
DH: 36 (my hero)
DS1: 20/05/05 (our miracle natural conception)
DS2: 18/12/06 (2nd miracle; 5 weeks prem)

Offline Aly Mac

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Re: Need help tweaking routine pls!
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2008, 01:49:20 am »
Nike, some bubs do just drop to one nap quite successfully.  A friend of mine did at around 11months.  It works for some.  If you like, give it a go and see how he goes - he may surprise you, though by the sound of it, he needs his sleep and a big jump in A time is too much.  Often if they are occupied, you can extend the A time.  Or what you could do, is just do one nap on the playgroup day. esp if he sleeps latish, like your does (yes, 7 is late around here).  Worth a go, what have you got to lose with trying for a couple of days?

Aleesa.....


Offline nike

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Re: Need help tweaking routine pls!
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2008, 23:56:49 pm »
I have been stretching the first nap out till 9.30 a.m., which seems to be working well.  Second nap has been at about 2.30, an extra half hour as well.  I am waking him from both naps at the 1.5 hour mark, which I really hate doing, especially since I wake him at 7 a.m. to start the day :(  Poor little man!  He is very happy though and doesn't seem to mind.  He has been going to bed from 7 - 7.15, and again I'm happy with that and he is settling really well.

I have two quns though!!  The last couple of days he's been REALLY upset around bath time, to the point where I've had to get him out quickly, thinking he's really tired (but it's only 2.5 hrs after he wakes up from the p.m. nap ???)  He is showing all the tired signs then, rubbing his eyes, etc.  After a little cuddle though, it's like he's got his second wind and is happy again.  What the???

The past two mornings he's done the same thing about an hour after breakfast, really whingey and whiney, crawling after me, etc, showing major tired signs (after 12 hours sleep ???), cuddling into his sooky, etc.  Anyway, I thought I'd try offering his bottle earlier, so gave it to him at 8.30, instead of about 9.15 before his nap at 9.30.  Well, he drowned most of it in no time flat and then was a happy chappy again  ???  I didn't know what to do before sleep then and thought I would be in for a fight, but he was happy to go to bed with no bottle.  We just did the usual wind-down, I put him in his sleeping bag and he rolled over and I haven't heard a peep!

So what do you think is going on???  Is he trying to tell me something???  Now that he's going for 2nd nap at 2.30, do you think I should still offer the 2nd bottle at normal time, 1.30, seeing as he can handle going to bed without having a bottle first??  This would be a bit of a pain since we're usually out and about and he won't drink anywhere other than home, which has suited as to date as he has been having his bottle 15 minutes before naps, which we're home for anyway.  I had hoped to be able to wean the middle of the day bottle at least, if not all.  I realise this is a feeding q'un but it's all kind of combined with sleeping at the moment!

Sorry for all the rambling but my textbook boy is all over the place here and I don't know what he's trying to tell me!!  Ideas/suggestions pls!!
ME: 37 (IVF survivor of 4 m/c + 1 ect)
DH: 36 (my hero)
DS1: 20/05/05 (our miracle natural conception)
DS2: 18/12/06 (2nd miracle; 5 weeks prem)

Offline Aly Mac

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Re: Need help tweaking routine pls!
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2008, 07:17:56 am »
By the sounds of it he was hungry.  could be a bit of a growth spurt, but follow your instincts and if he acts hungry then feed him.  I'm no expert on the bottle feeding sorry - I never did it - now Bf, that's a different story LOL. I would suggest posting on the bottle feeding forum for expert advice.

It sounds like the naps are fine on the 2 x 1.5hrs for now. Esp if he sleeps thru the night. If it aint broke.....I would change when he starts to buck that second nap again ie: shorten the first nap, and put him down earlier for the second nap, if you can.

Oh yeh, with the bathtime - do you bath everynight? if so, it just may be one of those cues, where he knows what is coming next and doesn't want to go to bed.  Predictability is good, but sometimes they get a little antsy.  Not alot you can do, except to change it up a bit, but I wouldn't.  He'll grow out of it.

I won't be around much over easter, so please have a lovely weekend, and I'll check back in early next week.
Aleesa.....


Offline nike

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Re: Need help tweaking routine pls!
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2008, 20:32:14 pm »
Houston, we have a problem! ???

Aleesa, hope I catch you before you go on Easter break.  If not, have a lovely holiday ;D

Ok, yesterday went like this:

woke him @ 7.10
nap @ 9.30 (he slept till 11)
nap @ 2.30 (he slept till 4)
bed @ 7.15

Now, he was happy all day, no bath dramas, and was more than happy to go to bed last night.  Well, just after 9.30 p.m. he woke and then was awake till 12.30 :o :o :o  We tried EVERYTHING.  I ended up crashing and DH settled him.  It seemed like he wasn't tired ??? ???  Out of desperation at one point we brought him into our bed (which we NEVER do, silly us for even thinking it would work ::)) and he started laughing at the digital clock ::)

Anyway, what to do??  He had 2 x 1.5 hour sleeps.  That's about an hour less than was his previous routine.  Now do I have to drastically cut back that morning sleep to an hour, put him down at 2 and let him have a good arvo sleep, or cut back that one too???  I'm so confused!! ??? ???  My DH and I are squaballing (sp?) at the moment.  He thinks I should just let him sleep, considering I am waking him for EVERY nap and to start the day.  HELP!

Btw, I think we have the bath thing sorted.  Sounds really weird, but he was trying to drink copious amounts of bath water so we gave him a cup of water and he went to town ;D Of course we offer him water with dinner, and lots through the day, but then the boys have a bit of a play on the deck before bath and then a "nudie run", so maybe he was just thirsty.  Two nights in a row of offering lots of water and he's happy in the bath again.  Go figure!!

Pls, if anyone else could help while Aleesa's away???
ME: 37 (IVF survivor of 4 m/c + 1 ect)
DH: 36 (my hero)
DS1: 20/05/05 (our miracle natural conception)
DS2: 18/12/06 (2nd miracle; 5 weeks prem)

Offline Aly Mac

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Re: Need help tweaking routine pls!
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2008, 02:25:10 am »
I do think that 3hrs day and 12 at night is too much, given he has woken like that. YOu can let him sleep as much in the day if you like, but then you would need to make the night time much shorter too, to make up for it.

I would cut the am nap, but that's waht worked for us.  many do it the other way around.  it depends on which way they tend to like it.
Aleesa.....


Offline nike

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Re: Need help tweaking routine pls!
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2008, 09:27:19 am »
PLEASE HELP!  Everything's just gone to #%%% and I don't know how to fix it :'(  It's taken me 45 mins for the last couple of nights getting him to sleep.  Previously he's always gone down like a dream.  DH is in with him now cos I shouted at him.  I'm so angry at him right now that I just want to leave him in there to CIO.  That's how mad I am >:( (Not to mention disgusted at myself that I could even think like this)

This is how today went:

Woke him at 7.10 a.m.
Nap at 10 (tried putting him down from 9.30.  He's NEVER lasted this long in the a.m.)
Woke him just after 11
Nap at 2 (no dramas at all with this one; things as normal)
Woke him at 3.30 (was really happy all afternoon, which is unusual, as usually he's a bit grumbly.  In fact, I'd even say he was a bit hyper towards the end of the night routine.  He wouldn't sit still for stories, wanted to crawl and play with toys ??? Again very unusual)
Sleep - well, we're still working on that one.  I took him into his room at 6.45 and he drank his bottle.  I usually give him a little cuddle before popping him in his cot.  He was fighting me on the cuddle tonight, again unusual, but wouldn't have a bar of being in his cot.  I've had to go in several times to resettle.  Then I had my dummy spit and now DH is in there ??? ???

By the sounds of the above, is he just not tired or is he overtired?  Remember, this was a little guy who up till a week or so ago could not last more than 2 hours up in the morning and then 3 hours A time after that.  Surely he couldn't be changing his A time to much more so quickly????

HELP ME PLEASE!
ME: 37 (IVF survivor of 4 m/c + 1 ect)
DH: 36 (my hero)
DS1: 20/05/05 (our miracle natural conception)
DS2: 18/12/06 (2nd miracle; 5 weeks prem)

Offline Aly Mac

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Re: Need help tweaking routine pls!
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2008, 02:51:33 am »
Oh Nike, I'm sorry you are going through this, and that I didn't see this sooner. 

Ok, what time did he end up going to sleep? What is your windown routine like now?  maybe he needs more quiettime before bed?

What is he going through developmentally? ie: crawling, walking etc? 

Don't forget you are changing his routine, so he may take a few days to get into the swing of it.  Also, what was he doing? crying or fussing to get to sleep?  How long did you leave before you went back in?

sorry for all the q's.  Just want to make sure I get the full picture.

How did today go?
Aleesa.....


Offline nike

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Re: Need help tweaking routine pls!
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2008, 10:34:01 am »
Hey Aleesa. Thanks for all your invaluable advice thus far :)

My little guy has just turned 15 months but is 13.5 adjusted.  He only started crawling in the last couple of weeks, a huge milestone for him/us!  He has had hypertonia and developmental delay since birth, but he's slowly catching up.  I think this may also be the reason why, to date, he's had the sleeping pattern of a much younger bub. 

I'm not altogether sure what's going on with him right now, whether it's SA, developmental or teething.  He has always been a great sleeper even when teething, with only the occasional wake-up.  He got like 10 teeth at once ( :o) and he really was a trooper.  He also cut all four of his molars recently together :o  I think he also may be getting his eye teeth atm.  What I'm trying to say is that he really has been a great sleeper throughout teething and illness, which is why now I'm at a loss as to what's suddenly gone wrong???  It's like I can't read him any more!

Anyway, as for last night, DH got him to sleep just after 8 p.m by patting him on the back in his cot.  He was happy to be cuddled but when you put him down he'd start crying.  I must have walked in and out of there 5 times before losing it  :'( So he'd been awake from 3.30 p.m.  We've always had a pretty quiet wind-down of the two boys in the bath together at about 6.15, stories in the lounge and then we say goodnight to Daddy and his brother, go into his darkened room (I just have a nightlight on), put him into his sleeping bag and then give him his bottle while sitting in the rocking chair.  We have a burp and a little cuddle afterwards, I tell him it's sleepytime and put him in his cot, turn the nightlight off and walk out.  I NEVER hear a peep out him.  He also has music playing quietly in his room. 

For the last week or so he's seemed quite "hyper" around what normally would be quiet time/stories.  He won't sit still any more for stories and will crawl around playing.  It's like he's not tired ???  For a couple of weeks now he's started crying out about 10 minutes after I've left the room at night, and then I'd go in and offer him the rest of the bottle that he didn't finish (most often it would be refused) and give him another little cuddle.  Sometimes he'd squirm around and then do a burp and I'd put him straight down again.  Often it'd only take a couple of minutes of cuddles and he'd be happy then. 

But in the last week it's gone all pear-shaped, with the crying escalating and him not settling.  Then we had that episode where he wanted to party from 9.30 p.m. till after midnight ::)  After that we started cutting his last nap shorter as we thought he was sleeping too late in the afternoon to be tired enough for bed at that time.  So we did the cutting back and he still didn't seem tired to settle easily!  We have been cutting the a.m. nap short for a while now.  If not awoken, he would happily sleep 2 hours, even after 12 hours night-time sleep and only 2 hours A time before that first nap.

Today we needed to visit DH's grandmother who is recovering from a nasty fall.  She's 92 yo and they don't expect her to be around much longer.  We both decided we'd bite the bullet and see how he went with going down later in the morning, enabling us to make our visit earlier in the a.m.  He woke at 7.30 this morning, btw. So after last night's dramas he still slept through ;D  Anyway, we were home by 10.45 and he was happy as larry, didn't even nod off in the car on the way home, so we thought we'd stretch him out some more, give him an early lunch and see how he went with one nap today.  He ate a great lunch, I gave him a bottle at 11.45 and put him to bed at 12 p.m.  Didn't hear a peep out of him!  He then woke at 2.30, whingeing, the same as he did this morning.  But it didn't take him long to wake up properly and for the rest of the afternoon he did great.  Usually he has predictable whingeing around arsenic hour (even after waking at 4 p.m. in the arvo, usually he's whingey really until bed!) but none today.  I was aiming for a 6.30 bedtime but we were a little late.  I gave him a bottle at 6.45 and put him in his cot just before 7, after lots of cuddles.  He'd then sit up and start crying when I left the room.  I did WI/WO for 10 mins and then sent DH in to work his magic.  He patted him on the back in his cot and he was quiet by 7.10.  DH is pretty sure he was still awake when he left the room.  I thought for sure he'd wake after 40 mins but he hasn't stirred.  It remains to be seen what the night will bring ;)

So tonight it only took 1/2 hour to put him to sleep, which is an improvement on the last couple of nights, but of course I want to get back to the old days of him happily just rolling over and going to sleep!!

Can you glean anything out of all my rambling to see a new routine emerging or anything I'm doing wrong???

Thanks so much in advance!
ME: 37 (IVF survivor of 4 m/c + 1 ect)
DH: 36 (my hero)
DS1: 20/05/05 (our miracle natural conception)
DS2: 18/12/06 (2nd miracle; 5 weeks prem)

Offline Aly Mac

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Re: Need help tweaking routine pls!
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2008, 22:06:36 pm »
Hi Nike,

It could be seperation anxiety. If so then lots of cuddles throughout the day, play peekaboo so he knows you will be coming back.   I know when my lo goes thru this it's the nighttime bedtime that we need to do wi/wo with.  He is also going through a lot developmentally as you say, which can also set things astray.  I can't see that you are doing anything wrong.  YOu seem to be consistent in what you do which is the main thing. the only thing I can see, is maybe the bedtime is a little late given he is on a one nap day.  I find that when L is on a one nap day, even though the amount of nap sleep is more than on a 2nap day, she is often a little more tired and an earlier bedtime is needed.  Even if it's 15mins.

I hope this helps you.  I might get one of the toddler sleep mods to have a look too, as I'm new to this toddler sleep so can only advise from my own experience.

i hope you had a good night.
Aleesa.....