Which easy should I be doing>

[MathildasMum]

hI everyone (munky, for some reason personal messaging on here keeps crashing my pc - my email is mail@precioustimedoula.com - could we carry on our convo on email?)

i have so much stufff whizzing round my head im not really sure what to start on. Vadensmommy, as ever thanks so much for such a detailed, helpful post. I read it this moring and im going to go and read it again now to try and digest it again!

Today has gone like this

Up and feeding at 7.25
Down for nap at 9am
Napped for 45 minutes, unable to extend (me feeling depressed)
Low key activity until she demanded a feed at 10.30
Tired signs at 11.10 - put her in her carseat was so desperate for her to nap
Major AP here as I rocked her carseat throughout the nap and she slept until 1.25!
Fed at 2
Nap at 2.45 - 45 mins again, unable to extend
Another catnap between 4-5
Fed at 5
6pm bath, bedtime routine and feed at 6.40
Fast asleep at 7pm

SOOOOOOOooo you could say we had success at that middle nap but i cant really count it due to the carseat rocking.

What shall I do about that? If the only way I can get her to nap a decent length is using AP shall I go with that just so she doesnt get OT or perservere with independant sleep even if thats when the short naps really come in?

What I find REALLY hard is knowing what her TRUE A time is - most of the time we are dealing with short naps and OT so her A times are short because of this IYSWIM

Im thinking of getting the feeds to a solid 3.5 hours - regardless of where she naps inbetween and once that is established get heavy with the naps??

What do you all think

What is a typical feeding structure on 3.5?

7, 10.30, 2, 5.30 and bedtime cluster?

Babymunky - are you going to put him down on his front at start of nap or just use that to extend - I have only tried mathilda on her front once or twice and it hasnt worked - might try that again.

[vadensmommy]

quick note -my PM's kept crashing everything too - I was able to open up everything in internet explorer (I usually use firefox) and deleted a PM sent out by andy to everybody - all the addresses were showing up for whatever reason, and making the PM extremely long, and seemed to be the culprit.  Now everything is working right again, and I can access it in FF again just fine.

Rebecca,
I do think that a lot of yours may be tied to A times as well.  Looking at what you've posted, her good nap (even though it was assisted with AP) was after a >2hr A time.  She may just be a baby that needs more A time at a younger age, and there is nothing wrong with that.  The key for me seemed to be if I could get that 1st nap to be a good nap, the rest of the day fell into place better, because I wasn't quite so paranoid about OT.  Tomorrow, if I woke up in your shoes, I would try a 1hr 50min A time for the 1st A time of the day (that would be 15min more than she got today), and see what happens.  What do you do when she wakes at the 45min mark?  Does she ever extend with pat/shh??

Again, you may have to throw some of her cues out the window for a few days in order to see if this extended A time will work.  She may be grumpy, and you may have to spend more time resettling her at the 45min transition, but if you find that she starts waking at the 30min mark consistently, then you know you've stepped into OT territory again.

How are her nights looking?  Still good with just the early am feed??  You may want to wait a few more days as far as the stretching feed times goes (unless her naps lengthen, and she isn't waking ravenous) just to make sure the GS has settled down, otherwise you may be inviting some NW's driven by hunger, and those are much less fun than short naps, for sure!

One last word, don't let these short naps make you depressed.  I did, and I obsessed myself into almost PPD, which definitely isn't healthy.  I would encourage you to do your best to take a few deep breaths, and just really enjoy these moments when your lo is awake - whether she should be sleeping or not.  Do something fun with her, get out of the house, take a walk in the park if it is warm enough, take a hot bath while she sits in a bouncy seat next to you, whatever!!  These days are way too precious and short. I wish V was still that age, because it just went by so fast!  You are doing a good job, even though I KNOW short naps can make you feel like a parenting failure.  You're not, she's just learning how this all works, and you are too, and there is no shame in that.  If all else fails.  Throw EASY out the window for a day or two if you need to, just to reset YOURSELF, so that you are a more centered, calm and happy parent.  We can't be good parents if we ourselves are in a funk.  It will come, I promise.  I know it doesn't feel like it will, but you'll get there.  We just have to remember to enjoy the journey, even if it is a bumpy road sometimes.  V is driving me nuts these days with NW's which have always been really hard for me to handle, but she is at such a neat age, that I try to not let the way I feel detract from our relationship, and what I get out of being a mommy at this point in time.  Ok, preaching over and done sorry for the rant.

Good luck, keep me posted!!

[MathildasMum]

Thanks so much!!

her a time before the long nap was from 9.45 until about 11.15 - i make that 1.5 hours?

also, what is your opinion on the AP aspect to the nap - shall i go with that to get the sleeps in place then work on removing AP later or is that recipe for disaster?

I also now have a dreamfeed question

mathilda never took to dreamfeed originally - the days i did one she woke MORE in the night and for a good while she was doing 7pm-4,5 or 6. NOW however (since GS?) she has started WAKING for a feed at about 10.30. Then still again at about 5.

Shall I give DF another go?

[MathildasMum]

oh and about your words on enjoying our LOs. I need to take that on board- I cant describe the despair when she wakes up for a nap early. Today I thought, alot of people, not on EASY or similar would just think Oh! baby is up hello baby - whereas I spend whole nap dreading wake up, then when it happens I feel gutted, even angry and then get more and more stressed trying to extend.

I was saying to my husband earlier I might abandon extending for all but lunchtime nap as that is the one she will have longest and just give myself permission to accept the short naps at other times. Also, due to school runs the lunchtime nap is the only one we are at home for on the days when the kids are at school.

I never understand, after a short nap what I should be doing? Quiet activity until feed time, feed then small activity and down at the usual awake time since end of Short nap> OR keep her going until next nap time is "due" OR limit A time to not long after Feed to keep OT away>?

[vadensmommy]

Ah, you are right about that A time- I was reading 9am-11:10, thanks for the correction!!!!  The NW's on our end are probably getting to me

It can't hurt to try the DF again.  There are some babies who just can't do the dream feed, because it disrupts their night sleep more than it helps, and that is the whole point of the DF - to help them get a full tummy and make it longer at night without a feeding.  So I would probably at least give it a try again, and if it doesn't work, don't do it

I did exactly what you are talking about - say, to heck with the short naps, and just love that baby with all you've got, no matter when she naps or when she doesn't.  It isn't her fault that she's short napping, it could just be her biological rhythm, and she needs a calm and loving mommy to be relaxed enough to take a good long nap anyways.  I think picking the one nap to try to extend is a good idea, but if even that doesn't work, just have fun.  I promise you, I could have written your posts, verbatim, 11 months ago.  I was a basket case, and was resentful that V couldn't take a "proper" nap.  There were quite a few days where I shed more tears than she did.

DH was starting to get seriously worried about me, because I had done so well emotionally up until she was about 3mo, and that seemed so late to be sinking into PPD.  She had a checkup, and I asked the doctor about naps, and how often she needed to be napping.  He gave me bad and wrong advice saying that she could stay awake as long as she wanted, let her cio, and only feed her every 4hrs if I wanted to.  But, it was what I needed to hear, and I quit worrying about how long she napped, and made a conscious effort to just love her up and enjoy her while she was small.  And it worked!  If you find that you can't make yourself let go of the short naps - you may want to look into PPD stuffs more.  There are lots of posts I can point you towards, if you are interested.
You may want to check out the Obsessing around routines post - it is fairly new, and wish that it had been around when V was younger:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=86016.0

When you get her up from a short nap - is she happy?  Or is she really cranky.  Is she going to sleep independently??  What does your wind down look like, and how long does it take you to get her down for a nap???

For us - Vaden was a great self-soother from very early on, but no amount of pat/shh or AP would get her back to sleep if she woke at the 45min mark, which looking back, is obvious that she just wasn't tired enough to take a proper nap - otherwise she would have made that sleep transition on her own, because she was a great SSer.  If self-soothing is a big issue for Mathilda, then I would not recommend using much AP because that really can backfire in the long run.  I could use it with V a bit more, because she was an angel baby, and very easy to sleep train. 

If she is going to sleep independently, then I really would suggest you look at lengthening her A time some.  Maybe just by 10-15min, so that it is 1hr 40 or 45minutes, and see what happens.  I mean, the worst thing that will happen, will be that her naps shrink to 30minutes or she really fights going down for the nap, because she is OT.

As far as how long A times need to be AFTER a short nap - that is hard to gauge, but I think I typically just kept her up the same amount of A time, which, typically, led to another short nap!  Again, should have been a clue for me that she needed a little more A time.  Hindsight is always 20/20 isn't it!!!

So those are my disjointed thoughts atm.  I hope something in all of this is usefull!!!!

[Meg's Mom]

I never understand, after a short nap what I should be doing? Quiet activity until feed time, feed then small activity and down at the usual awake time since end of Short nap> OR keep her going until next nap time is "due" OR limit A time to not long after Feed to keep OT away>?

what i do is quiet activity until feed time, feed then small activity and down at the appropriate A time since end of short nap.  If you keep her going until next nap tme is due, she will be OT and you definately won't get a longer nap.

1) What shall I do about that? If the only way I can get her to nap a decent length is using AP shall I go with that just so she doesnt get OT or perservere with independant sleep even if thats when the short naps really come in?

2) What I find REALLY hard is knowing what her TRUE A time is - most of the time we are dealing with short naps and OT so her A times are short because of this IYSWIM

3) What is a typical feeding structure on 3.5 - 7, 10.30, 2, 5.30 and bedtime cluster?

1) I am/would, my plan is to use AP to extend the naps along w/ the extending A times.  Then once her body is used to sleeping longer, i will phase out the AP one nap at a time.  AND i won't feel any guilt about the AP either  :-)
2) I would push the A time 5mins at a time that will help avoid OT and you should see what her true A time is.
3) that is correct.

[Meg's Mom]

One last word, don't let these short naps make you depressed.  I did, and I obsessed myself into almost PPD, which definitely isn't healthy.  I would encourage you to do your best to take a few deep breaths, and just really enjoy these moments when your lo is awake - whether she should be sleeping or not.  Do something fun with her, get out of the house, take a walk in the park if it is warm enough, take a hot bath while she sits in a bouncy seat next to you, whatever!!  These days are way too precious and short. I wish V was still that age, because it just went by so fast!  You are doing a good job, even though I KNOW short naps can make you feel like a parenting failure.  You're not, she's just learning how this all works, and you are too, and there is no shame in that.  If all else fails.  Throw EASY out the window for a day or two if you need to, just to reset YOURSELF, so that you are a more centered, calm and happy parent.  We can't be good parents if we ourselves are in a funk.  It will come, I promise.  I know it doesn't feel like it will, but you'll get there.  We just have to remember to enjoy the journey, even if it is a bumpy road sometimes.  V is driving me nuts these days with NW's which have always been really hard for me to handle, but she is at such a neat age, that I try to not let the way I feel detract from our relationship, and what I get out of being a mommy at this point in time.  Ok, preaching over and done sorry for the rant.

you are soooo right, i didn't enjoy my time w. megan, dd#1, from age 3 to 6months due to the 45min nap monster.  I thought long and hard about dd#2 and whether i would fight her should the nap issue show it's ugly head.  It has and i will try to help her along, but if it turns out it is just her...i will go w/ the flow and ENJOY my lo!!  You r a very astute mommy!

[vadensmommy]

Hey Mathildasmum!
I saw your other post, but thought I would let other moms respond there, and respond to you here on this one Hope that is ok!  Vaden's cries have changed a lot as she gets older, and so some of it may just be her growing and changing.  But there also may be something medically going on.  Vaden started "talking" REALLY loud when she had her first ear infection.  My parents were in town, and my dad said - I don't think she likes whatever is happening - maybe she is in pain?  Sure enough, after they left from visiting she started running fever, and got diagnosed with her 1st ear infection - she was around 4mo.  So there may be discomfort that is causing these new cries as well.

HUGS!  I know things have been rough.  Is she a refluxer??  That may explain a lot if she is. 
If you haven't already, you might want to check out the reflux boards here:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?board=13.0

Discerning baby's cries:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=107248.0

Hope that helps some!!  Keep me updated!

[MathildasMum]

vadensmum - thank you so much for looking out for me

im still exhausted and confused but feeling a little less down as my dh has helped loads this weekend.

some things running through my head right now.....

*yesterday was a good day in terms of how happy mathilda was and the thing that was different is that every time we suspected she was tired at all gave her a short nap - didnt try to extend just kept putting her back for naps (unfortunately these all took place in carseat) anyway it was the first time IN HER LIFE that she wasnt overtired at bedtime. Some of her A times were as short as 30 mins, none longer than about an hour. Is this because she is chronically OT.

Today not so good - she didnt manage to sleep at some of the naps so ended up OT

Her feeding is TERRIBLE - i have changed her formula (she is nearly all formula now) to an easy digest one thinking that might help and i thought it did after her good day yesterday but she does not take full feeds. she is over 14 weeks now and feeding like a newborn. When I do manage to get a decent feed into her she will go 3.5 hours but today not one feed has been more than 2.5oz. She has barely managed 12 oz all day.

The doctor isnt interested as she has continually gained weight well but the feeding is such a nightmare. We were given infant gaviscon to try in case its reflux but she is rarely sick and I have seen less and less of her silent reflux symptoms she had as a newborn.

She arches her back alot when she feeds though and often pulls off and cries every few sucks but this seems related to the OT.

Her nightfeeds are definitely better but that is not the way I want it to be!!!

I must seem pathetic as I just dont seem to be able to improve anything.

I did have a plan of making each feed cycle 3.5-4 hours to try and get her to take more oz but because of short naps and short tolerance of awake time could do EASASAE EASASAE

I would REALLY rather it not be like this but what can I do

I just want a ROUTINE, I REALLY do, I NEED one for my other kids and my mental health!!!

Give it to me straight, what do you think I should be doing?

[Meg's Mom]

I would try to continue what you did yesterday and get her out of chronic OT..it does sound that way. 

Big hugs, you don't sound pathetic, you sound overwhelmed which i would be too!!

For feeding, if she is not interested at feeds then, yes i would try extending those and just fit the short naps around them by doing EASASAE.  It won't  be like this forever...i promise.  Also i wonder if trying to feed her in a dark and quiet environment might help (if you can w/ other LOs)...also holding her more upright.  I went through a stage where Megan did exactly what you are describing but when i breastfeed...i was never able to figure out why. But she is definitely a touchy LO, didn't like light or sounds (even me talking) when she was eating.  She was  diagnosed w. silent reflux by a consultant at over 1yr old...she regular doctor didn't want to hear about reflux either because she was gaining.  She was only gaining because i had FIGHT at every feed to get her to eat and it shouldn't be that way!  Maybe you should also post in the feeding forum and see if those ladies have some input into the feeding problem.

Hope that helps!

[babymunkey]

Hi Rebecca

I've sent you a longer reply by email, but I'm with Meg's Mom - I would do whatever you need to do to get her sleep hours in during the day - as long as its something sustainable for the forseeable future. Then at least you can pick a time that works for you to sort it out later. I think conscious AP definitely has its place.

I can't be any help re the feeding issues. I'm so sorry you're sad that she won't BF, but ultimately you're doing what you can for the best for her, so don't be hard on yourself.

H

[Meg's Mom]

I wanted to add what my LO is doing, w/ the longer A times she is sleeping great for that first nap. But her second nap she will sleep 30min, even w/ the longer a time (now 2hrs).  so I pop her in the swing, she will stay  awake for 20min or so and go back to sleep.  I think she knows she is still tired but can't get back to sleep right away.  It sounds like your lo is doing something similar w/ all her naps, so she/you are not alone on that one. 

[MathildasMum]

Thankyou all, your input is so kind and appreciated - gives me something to focus on and not go mad.

OK.....so my plan for tomorrow

Get sleep however I can get it as often as she will have it???

Try and stretch her feeds out,, cutting down on stimulation

I defintiely think her touchiness is playing alot of a role here - I try and massage her as part of her bedtime routine, but still at 14 weeks she flinches and startles when I touch her skin, my poor, lovely kids just want to love and cuddle her but its just too much for her when they are in her face. My son harvey adores her but is starting to think she hates him as she screams if he gets too close.

This isnt how I imagined it would be thats for sure!! But I gotta love the baby i got and do you know what? I do! I love her to little bits the awkward little so and so!!

Im feeling good today as i have just come back from a gym workout (first since I had her) so feeling energised.....hope it lasts!!

[MathildasMum]

Meg's mom

I SO wish that mathilda would tolerate her swing as I would be fairly happy with that scenario, would seem more like it was all part of the same nap.

She is taking most of her naps in her carseat right now and Im not happy with that - they arent supposed to spend that long in it and with the regular car trips we have as well feels like she spends most of her day in it!

[vadensmommy]

Rebecca - So much of what you describe with Mathilda sounds like reflux.  Just because she doesn't spit up or vomit a lot doesn't mean she doesn't have it.  And vice versa.  Vaden was an enormous puker.  I can't tell you the number of changes of clothes we both went through in a day - up until she was at least 9mo or so.  But she was the happiest little puker you could have ever seen.  She'd puke, then want more milk because she was hungry again!  The ped put her on a reflux med - Axid, but it didn't help the puking, because that was related to her underdeveloped sphincter, and all the meds do is help the pain.

All that to say, since she is such a fan of her carseat, I would let her sleep in it.  If she sleeps better in it, then I'd let her.  APOP as they say (AP on purpose ).  You can always wean the carseat sleeping later if you have to.  I don't know much about the different reflux meds, and don't know anything about gaviscon, but you might consider talking to your ped again.  Honestly, they say that smaller feeds during the day are actually better for the reflux, because the tummy doesn't get quite as overfull as it would if feeds were farther apart.  If her ped still won't listen to you and your concerns, I'd consider changing peds, or seeing about a GI consult. 

I don't know if they have it where you live, but they make formula that you can be here in the US that is specifically for refluxers.  I think it is a thicker formula that is easier for baby to keep down without that sphincter muscle having to work quite so hard to keep it down. 

Other than that, all I can say, is do the best that you can - with the constant catnaps and small feedings.  I know that has to make you feel very out of control, because I know it would me, but sometimes you just do what you have to to make it work!  Keep us all posted!  We're here to listen and offer support if nothing else!!